In Reply To:
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However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the book of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.
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Jesus will not leave us and no one can take him away from us. However, we have free will that lets us go away from Him. The Bible makes this very clear.
Proverbs 21:7 The oppression of the wicked will sweep them away, because they refuse to do what is right. 8 The way of the culprit is crooked, but the conduct of the innocent is right.

Jer.2:28 But where are your gods that you made for yourself? Let them arise, if they can save you, in your time of trouble; for as many as your cities are your gods, O Judah. [29] "Why do you complain against me? You have all rebelled against me, says the LORD. [30] In vain have I smitten your children, they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion. [31] And you, O generation, heed the word of the LORD. Have I been a wilderness to Israel, or a land of thick darkness? Why then do my people say, `We are FREE, we will come no more to thee'? [32] Can a maiden forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

The opposite of free will is free stuborness or hardness of heart. For example---
Mark, chapter 7:[15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him."
Mark, chapter 10:5: But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark, chapter 16:14: Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Matthew, chapter 19:8: He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt.15:18-20 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."
Ephesians, chapter 4:18: they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;
Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors. 52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.
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This does not mean that the true believer has a free ride, a license to sin. A true believer strives to follow Jesus; but being human they will sometimes stumble. Any true believer will tell you, that having been sealed with the Holy Spirit, they cannot remain in a prolonged sinful lifestyle; because, the Spirit will not allow them peace until they abandon that lifestyle.

Additionally, God's outpouring of love to His children does not allow the true believer to be comfortable with prolonged sin.
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Do you have any scientific evidence to prove this? Based on my experience, I whole-heartedly disagree. Why, in the Our Father, do we pray to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? If this is impossible to be tempted, why pray for it? Even Jesus was tempted after the Holy Spirit descended on him. Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."

Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

2 Peter 2:18-21 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

Hebrews 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

The idea of Once Saved, Always Saved and the lack of free will is not what original Christianity taught. The Catholic Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against the heresy of Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529 AD) and at the Council of Trent (1546 AD).

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Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start.

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That doesn't sound like one can ever be sure one is really saved. It seems when one commits sin, one would start to doubt their salvation, so therefore one would want to get "saved" every week. Eventually, one would start thinking they are unable to make a commitment to Christ at all because they think they really meant it the last time, so why try again? What they need is repentance, confession and mercy, not to be "saved" again. This would make the Bible make more sense because it would explain how we can believe in Jesus, yet fall into sin. The story of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15) is more what salvation is all about.
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Salvation is a gift given by God, which is in accordance with scriptural teaching. Now, those that say salvation can be lost will, for the most part, also say that salvation is a gift.

However, in practicality, they are actually denying that salvation is a gift. Why do I say that? Because a gift is not something, which you must earn or pay for to keep!

If I give you something and it is truly a gift, I will not ask you to work for it in exchange or to keep doing something to make sure I don’t take it away. We need to align with Scripture and remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life.
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I agree salvation is a gift given by God. By obeying the commandments, I am not earning heaven. I'm avoiding hell. The Prodigal Son claimed his inheritance, but in offending the father, lost the joy of belonging to his family. He would have remained in that state if he had not repented. We can be disinherited too through serious sin. By obeying the commandments, I am acting like one who belongs to God's family. Only my free will decision will get me disinherited. God will not break his covenant with me, but I can break my covenant with him. I can't do this on my own. I need God's grace. John
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing."

Why would Jesus say, "Remain in me" if that is not a free choice or an impossibility of leaving? By the rest of your post ("whatever happens will happen"), you seem to be supporting double predistination -- the idea that God makes some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. My God would not be so mean that he would damn someone before they were born. We are all create to know love and serve God and be with him in heaven. Some of us will turn away through our own choice. I can agree we are predestined to heaven, but not to hell.

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In Reply To
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i agree that faith alone saves...logic tells us that one who accepts Christ as thier Lord and Savior is going to ask God for forgiveness naturally...so faith alone is all that is needed from us...asking for forgiveness will happen as a result of faith

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If I say I'm a Christian, but sacrifice my children to pagan gods, can I can't call myself a Christian? No. I have to act like what I have committed myself to being. I have to practice what I preach. I have to take up my cross and follow Jesus (Mt 16:24). Doing this is not optional, but it is not what earns heaven for me. Eternal life is a free gift. Otherwise, I am just saying "Lord, Lord". I don't have to obey the "works of the law" like circumcision or abstain from pork, which is what Paul meant by "works of the law." I can't earn heaven, but I can earn hell, which is where I would go if I refuse to obey the 10 commandments.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Repentance and baptism are also required.

Acts 2:36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

From the forum at Christianity.com:
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There is a difference between the true believer, that person who has been born-again. And the individual that professes to be a Christian with his lips, but is not in reality.

For those that are true believers, the Holy Spirit is the enabler and convicter bringing them unto good works. Good works is a natural result of ones loving personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Good works are not a means to keep or sustain the grace gift of salvation that Jesus completed.

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If good works are a natural result, why does Scripture tell us to endure? If they were as natural as breathing, why would we need to be told to do it? Here are just a few of many verses that tell us to endure.

Heb.10
[36] For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

2 Timothy 2:3
You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:5
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Luke.21
[19] By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Rev.14
[12] Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

From the forum at Christianity.com:
To Bond:
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Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16). In fact, the apostle Paul goes as far as saying that “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (verse 21). If we could obtain righteousness by such things as obeying the commandment and doing charity, there would have been no need for Christ dying on the cross.
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Whne Paul talks about works of the law, he was talking about obeying the Levitical law such as circumcision (Romans 2:25-29, 3:1) and dietary laws (Romans 14), not moral laws. In the next verse, Galatians 2:17, says "But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!"

In Romans 2:5-8, Paul condemns the Judiazers who think they will be saved by the Levitical law. He says, "By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Romans 1:5 Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, 6 among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;" Obedience to what? The moral law. Romans 13:8 says, "Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."

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There are also historical errors in the apocrypha. For example, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.). These two events were separated by over 200 years and yet the total lifespan of Tobit was 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7) when in fact he was the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:1).

Surely the doctrinal and historical errors in the apocrypha are evidence against the divine inspiration of these books.

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There are "errors" in the deuterocanonical books. The book of Judith, for example, gets several points of history and geography wrong. Similarly Judith, that glorious daughter of Israel, lies her head off (well, actually, it's wicked King Holofernes' head that comes off). And the Angel Raphael appears under a false name to Tobit. How can Catholics explain that such "divinely inspired" books would endorse lying and get their facts wrong? The same way we deal with other incidents in Scripture where similar incidents of lying or "errors" happen.
When the Gospels say the women came to the tomb at sunrise, there is no scientific error here. This is not the assertion of the Ptolemiac theory that the sun revolves around the earth. These and other examples which could be given are not "errors" because they're not truth claims about astronomy or historical events.

Similarly, both Judith and Tobit have a number of historical and geographical errors, not because they're presenting bad history and erroneous geography, but because they're first-rate pious stories that don't pretend to be remotely interested with teaching history or geography, any more than the Resurrection narratives in the Gospels are interested in astronomy. Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin." Just as one wouldn't wave a medieval history textbook around and complain about a tale that begins "once upon a time when King Arthur ruled the land," so Catholics are not reading Tobit and Judith to get a history lesson.

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Wisdom 8:19,20 is another contradiction between the apocrypha and Scripture. “For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” However, the Bible teaches that all are born with original sin. “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). The author of Wisdom believes he is an exception.

Sirach 12:4-7 advices, “Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner.” This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, “I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again” (Luke 6:27,30) “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink” (Romans 12:20).
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Jews who touched dead people were called defiled. Perhaps Wisdom 8:19,20 is talking about that kind of defilement, not original sin.

If this makes it unscriptural, why is Wisdom quoted in the New Testament?
Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, "For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God'" (cf. Matthew 27:42-43)

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Sirach 12:4-7 advices, "Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner." This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, "I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (Luke 6:27,30) "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink" (Romans 12:20).
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Jesus came to reveal the law of love of neighbor. In the Old Testament, that wasn't clear yet.

To eirene:
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I want to point out that what you have brought up is an issue of doctrine, and since your doctrines make no room for the those types of statements found in the Deuterocanonicals, then, as such, your belief system makes no room for those books to be considered as scripture . ..
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I agree. One should form doctrine from the scripture and tradition, not edit Scripture to fit preconceived doctrine.

I've been away from blogging because I had surgery again 7/31. I'm now back at work and doing fine. Please, Lord, enough already!

I have started being a catechist for those inquiring about the Catholic faith. It is a lot of fun and it's challenging. Our parish has 3 people that are in this phase and will be joining the RCIA this fall. The inquiry sessions are year around, though. Pray for our inquirers and may God send some more to our RCIA.

From the Christianity.com forums:
Here are some verses that say celibacy is good:
Mt 19:12; Jesus said, "Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."

1 Cor 7:7-9 ... Paul was unmarried. "Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another. 8 6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire."

1 Cor 7:32-34 says celibacy is good. "I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

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I would very much encourage you to look at some of the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine on many issues. If you're scared of leaving the church because it is Christ's 'one and true Church,' (which I was for quite some time,) I would encourage you to research what a church is.

Everything the Roman Catholics do has a good base. I understand why they have the crucifix, why they have the Mary Doctrines, (I can never spell Marianal right for some reason - I'm pretty sure that's wrong.) why they have a Episcopalian church government, but the one thing that I absolutely could not go with was Papal Authority, and Papal Infallibility.

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I've been getting TOS violations lately for my defense of the RCC, so I'm sending a private reply. I've enjoyed some of your posts too.

I am not afraid of leaving the RCC. I checked out some Protestant churches when I was younger. My friendships with Protestants have enriched my faith as, hopefully, I have for them. I have no desire to leave because I love all the RCC teaches.

As I participate in this forum, I see why Christ left Peter in charge and gave the pope authority. I see wildly different interpretations of Scripture, great disunity, uncharitable debate, slander towards Catholics, and all kinds of false claims that are not supported by history. So many seem adrift and searching for truth and are unable to feel confident that they can find it.

Without authority, there is no certainty that I am being taught what the apostles taught. My faith would be on shaky ground when it comes to doctrines like salvation. I've seen churches that cave into the latest fad doctrines or trends. There seems to be no anchor. We all can quote Scripture, but what does it really mean if no one can agree on the same basic tenents like salvation, the ten commandments, the trinity.....etc?

I love the pope's authority. I love that he can settle disputes to restore unity. I love that the RCC is still teaching what was taught in the first century. I love the way I can read the early writings of Christianity and find no conflicts with current teaching. I love the way the RCC does not change its doctrine, no matter how much pressure our society puts on it.

Jesus founded only one church. All for whom he died are members of his church, whether they are fully united with its teachings or not. To me that means that every person on this planet is part of Christ's church in some way or another. All who will be save will be saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord & savior. God does not send to hell those who are innocently ignorant of his teachings and follow the ten commandments. Those who are not ignorant and disobey - that's another matter.

Your sister in Christ,

BettyG

Pryor's religion triggers debate

By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A judicial confirmation hearing yesterday turned into a rancorous debate between Democrats and Republicans over whether it's possible for a devout Catholic to be confirmed to the federal bench.

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Are you and your church 100% in agreement doctrinally?
Yes. I got a copy of the church's by laws. I read them and studied the Bible regarding them. I would not go to a church just because I am "comfortable" there. I go to church to hear the Word of God and to have fellowship with other Christians of like minds and beliefs. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because my pastor preaches on issues that I either should not be doing or should be doing. For instance, I struggle with forgiveness. There are some people that I felt 'justified' in not forgiving. Well, I heard a convicting sermon one Sunday. I didn't want to know the things I heard. I am now working on forgiving. I am able to do this with a lot of prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit.
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I'm with you, yellowbug, and I'm Roman Catholic; which is considered by many to be pretty strict. It took time for me to submit my will to Christ's. The more I studied why my Church taught what it did, the more I realized I was wrong and was being stubborn. It was humbling to find out I didn't do a good job when I tried to re-invent the wheel. When I discovered the biblical basis and submitted to authority, I found more peace. Our society in the US has a "do your own thing" mentality. All that did for me was degrading and stressful. God's rules are wiser than any I can dream up. I will trust the wisdom of the ages as expressed by the Bible and taught by Christ's church from here on. I don't ever want to get lost again.
I will pray that you will forgive whomever, because I once struggled with that too. Victory will be yours. "The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." Psalm 34:18

I saw the movie Johnny English, a parody of James Bond movies. If you love slapstick and parody, this movie is for you. It was a riot. Except for a man mooning us, it was a good clean movie.

Obscenity law in Ohio targeted by lawyer

By Frank J. Murray
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A lawyer who specializes in defending the distribution of sex images, including by Larry Flynt's Hustler magazine, has moved to overturn Ohio's obscenity law on the basis of the recent Supreme Court decision legalizing homosexual sodomy.

Purgatory was not a recent invention. It is more than two thousand years old. The practice of praying for the dead was common among the Jewish people centuries before Christ. The Jews still say the Kaddish (http://www.mnemotrix.com/kaddish/kadwords.html) for a year after a death.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm
2 Macc 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." Note: Maccabees is a Deuterocanonical book. This quote from Maccabees is referenced in Heb 11:35, which shows that the Jews thought this book was inspired. Also, in John 10:22-26, Jesus celebrates the feast of the dedication (Hanukkah) which was made a feast in Maccabees, which implies Jesus didn't have a problem with this book either.

Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." True repentance requires making amends for the sins we have commited. If I steal something, I have not really repented if I don't pay back what I stole. It would not be fair to send people with minor (venial) sins (1 Jn 5:14-17) to hell, so there must be some way for the sins for which one has repented to finish the process of making amends. None of us are perfect when we get to heaven. We all have a tendency to sin, so how do we get to where we no longer have a tendency to sin? Something must happen to us after we die.

1 Cor 3:12 "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." The people Paul is talking about can't be people who are going to hell because they will be saved. So some people will be saved, but will be purified through fire.

Mt 12:31 "Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This implies that some sins will be forgiven in the age to come. It doesn't make sense that these sins would be mortal sins, because those who commit mortal sin go to hell and will not be forgiven. So the sins that are forgiven in the age to come are minor (venial) sins.

Here are some more verses about Purgatory:

Lk 12:59; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-14, ... God's painful discipline.
Heb 12:23 to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
1 Pet 3:19 ... he also went to preach to the spirits in prison (purgatory, limbo?).
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."

I'm doing some research for a depraved v. deprived debate. So far I've found these sites:
Catholic view = Deprived:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
http://www.kofc.org/faith/hart/hart_I8forgiveness.cfmhttp://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/originalsin.htm
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm

Lutheran view = Depraved:
http://www.all-of-grace.org/heidelberg.html
Heidelberg Catechism

Can anyone recommend other sites? Write me at rbg@cathworld.org


Importing morality?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030714-092735-6322r.htm

Can government compel people to act against their conscience? A Canadian judge forced a Catholic school to act against its understanding of Catholic teaching. That's what Henry VIII tried to do to Thomas More. Do these Canadian controversies foreshadow American controversies?

From the Christianity.com forum:

To Country_rocks1,
Is baptism necessary?
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I think this verse makes the point baptism is necessary clear enough. If you want to see that believing and baptism are both required, go to Mk 16:15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Also see Col 2: 12 "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
Are you thinking it is one or the other and not both faith and baptism that are necessary? I would baptize a baby just because Christ commanded the apostles to baptize. Why would Our Lord command it if it were not important? See Mt 28:19-20; "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." I would baptize the child for that reason even if we baptize people for gifts other than for salvation. Jesus did not say baptize everyone except young children. Acts 2:38-39 says "Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you.. "
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Baptism is a step in you full submission to God. But I do not believe that w/o it you are doomed.
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Baptism removes original sin, so it is necessary for this reason. For verses that show original sin, see Psalm 51:5, Gen 3:16-24, Rom 5:12-19, and 1 Cor 15:21-22. Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." If you believe that baptism doesn't really do anything, think again about the verses that show that baptism regenerates and washes away sin as in Titus 3. How would God treat a baby that dies without baptism? Rev 21:27 says the unclean will not enter heaven. Yet I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent who had no chance of choosing to believe or be baptized. Who am I to say that God will not make exceptions? But why risk it? I don't want any child to get into heaven on an exception if I could give them the grace of God by following God's commandment to baptize.

Infants can have faith even if they don't have language to let us know. Luke 1:43 says that John the Baptist had faith in Jesus while in the womb. "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy." Jesus told us to let the little children come to him and not hinder them (Matt.19:14). Mark 9:42 says "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Psalm 22:9-10 "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." The mercy and grace of God is with us from conception. My three kids started asking about God and praying not long after they could talk.

Before Jesus, circumcision was normally performed on infants (cf. Genesis 17:12) but it was replaced by baptism. Colossians 2:11-12 says "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." There was a disagreement in the early church whether one had to wait till the eighth day to baptize instead of doing it sooner. In the 200's, the bishops decided that it could be done sooner than 8 days.

I think the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one. For as the Lord says in His Gospel, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them," so as far as we can, we must do our best to see that no soul is lost. Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him/her be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit.
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Are you totally positive that "we" fully understand His rules and not how He applies them or could it be that we DON'T "fully" understand the rules themselves.
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I think both are true to some extent. We know only what God has revealed, but sometimes we are confused about how to interpret that. 1Cor.13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." Sometimes we have to read the Bible as a whole, not a verse or two to get the whole picture. Despite the gifts of knowledge and revelation, we can't know everything (2 Pet 3:15-16). Any God that I can fully understand is a pretty small God. Judgement is reserved to God alone, so I can't always know how he will judge someone. Again, I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent.

From the Christianity.com forum:
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I feel the rules you speak of hear are the ones defined by man, not by God. You say "if the rules are strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful". Well, if that is God's rule, than their is no "seem to be" about it, it would mean God is unmerciful in the way we view him. You are again implying that God makes exceptions to his rules to not seem unmerciful. You can't say we know what the rules are if that would mean God sometimes uses them and sometimes doesn't. Wouldn't it make more sense that God knows our heart, and as our hearts are his we obey his teaching to be Baptized out of our acknowledgment of our sin and our new life with him. Then if someone is taken from the world between the time the Holy Spirit entered his heart and the time he was baptized, we don't have to say God didn't stictly apply his rules in that case. We say, God knew his heart. And if you don't agree that the Holy Spirit enters your body before you are baptized, read the book of acts and you see many accounts of the Holy Spirit entering the body and then the men being baptized.
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When I say we don't fully understand how God applies the rules, I'm thinking of things that seems impossible for two things to both be true. For example, Jesus came for the salvation of all people regardless of denomination or creed.
1 John 2:1 "My children, 1 I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD."
This seems to contradict with John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Sometimes the Holy Spirit comes after baptism. Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Acts 8:15 "who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."

Acts 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

Other times, the Holy Spirit comes first. Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"

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A few things about this qoute, first, you again say baptism is a necessary step to salvation, yet I don't ever remember Jesus or his apostles emphasizing this. As much as they emphasized how the heart of man had to commit to their Faith in God and Jesus, I can't believe that it was not discussed, but for one verse in 1st Peter where it is said "Baptism now saves you" I haven't even read this section yet, so I am not sure of the context. But this is the only place in the Bible that it is even implyed that this act of Baptism is the difference between heaven and hell. And if you say it is "part of the process" as it kind of seems, that is a direct contradiction to this verse. Everywhere else, Baptism was shown as an act performed to show your faith. I am in need of plain English here because flowery descriptions are not doing it for me. Where else in the Bible are you deriving that Baptism is necessary. And I'm not even sure that is what is being stated in first Peter. If you are basing these "Rules" on one verse than why can refering to the theif on the cross which makes up one verse be refered to as an exception to the rule. They take up equal space in scripture.
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Baptism is one of several necessary steps. Earlier I wrote that salvation is a process, not instantaneous. Baptism is one of the necessary initial steps.
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized."

John 4:1-3 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples), 3 he left Judea and returned to Galilee.

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptised will be saved."
Matthew 3:14 "And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I NEED to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"

Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."

Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 22:15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
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Also, you say baptism is the means of recieving four basic gifts. Can you tell me where you are deriving this from, that Baptism is actually when all of these gifts are being given.
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Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. Baptism does more than just wash away sin.
Baptism makes us a member of the body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."
Gal 3:26 "For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus. 27 18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise."

Remission of sins:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
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Psalms 51:3 Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense. 4 Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me.
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Ezk 36:25-28 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Deliverance from death:
Romans 6:1-4 What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? 3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.

Regeneration:
Titus 3:4-8 "But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others."

Bestowal of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Yet the gift of baptism can end up being like an unopened gift. One must open the gift to truly have use of it. If a child doesn't grow in the faith, the gifts are dormant. Rom 2:28 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." This is why the parents must promise to raise the child in the faith before the child is baptized. The faith is more often "caught" than "taught" because of the good example of the parents.

http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/baptism2.htm has lots of verses on baptism. You could also go to Bible Gateway at http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible/ and do a search on the word "baptism" or "baptized". I think the above verses are the most important, though.

Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ... suggests baptism of all, incl. children.
Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4; Mk 16:16 ... necessity of baptism.
Col 2:11-12 ... circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Lk 2:21; Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism.
Acts 22:16 ... baptism removes sin.
1 Pet 3:21 ... baptism saves by water.

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Was it not taught that we are saved by Faith or did I interpret something wrong. I am being serious here, please don't take this as sarcastic, because I do want to understand how other people interpret the new testement. If inner faith is not what saves you, than either faith didn't save you at all or outward faith is actually what does it, and then does that mean you outward faith has to be real? It seems as if so much is to be questioned by these "rules" you speak of.
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And we are not saved by faith alone according to James 2:13 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Grace, repentance, faith, obedience, charity to neighbor are all part of our response to God's grace. This is a much bigger issue than what is included in this topic, but it is important to see how baptism fits into the bigger picture of salvation. The bottom line is that when Paul says in Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Paul is talking about obeying the 613 Jewish laws like circumcision (Rom 2:25). He does not mean that we don't have to have the "obedience of faith" as in Rom 1:5 or repent as in Rom 4 or act like he says in Rom 12. http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/solafide.htm is a good site for some verses on this. This topic has already been discussed in another forum Do Catholics believe in salvation
at http://forums.christianity.com/?post=75229

Proverbs 22:6
Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.

From the Christianity.com forum:
----------Quote----------
So, if the parents don't back up the promise they make at a Baptism that the child will be raised as a Christian, what happens? Now, if it is true that the parents act on the child's behalf, really all that has happened is the baby's head got wet because the parents are not following through.
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The faith of the parents makes a difference. The child is baptized on the basis that the parents are faithful Christians, so you are right in being concerned. Only one of the parents is required to be faithful, though. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 "To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy."

On the other hand, God's words are effective. The words do what He intends. So you can say the baptism of that child was ineffective or that the child will need to be re-baptized later. People do become believers even when their parents were not. Sometimes, parents later decide they want their child to be taught morality so they start going to church when the child is old enough to learn about God. Pray for the parents and do what you can to raise the child as a Christian even though the parents fail in their duty. In either case, baptism is one step in the process of salvation, yet Scripture says it is a necessary one. After baptism, the child is saved, is being saved, and hopes to be saved on the last day. The child is redeemed by the death and resurrection of Jesus and is part of God's family. Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The idea that it is a superfluous sign of inner faith was not what the apostles taught.

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I don't feel like their is gray area to God's judgement of us. He knows where our heart is and doesn't make "exceptions" to his rules because his rules are perfect and exceptions need not be applied.
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I do think there are gray areas where we can't judge exactly how God will judge someone. Judgement is reserved to God. On the one hand, we know what the rules are, but there are situations where if the rules were strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful to condemn one who was not baptized. St. Thomas Aquinas speculated that these were marginal cases. The word "marginal" in Latin is limbo, which is where the idea that unbaptized babies go to limbo if they die. That was never a doctrine; just a theological speculation. We have to assume God is merciful and that we don't know everything. There may be different rules for the innocently ignorant than for those who are willfully rejecting the faith. I don't think God will treat both the same because it would not be just.

From the Christianity.com forum:
Here are some major differences between religions:
Buddists believe there is no God. You have to save yourself.
Hindus believe any God will do. There is one God, but no one true God.
Muslims believe God created the world, but doesn't love us. We are slaves and have to earn salvation.
Jews believe God created the world and loves us.
Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us.
Catholic Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us and that they can hold the body and blood of Jesus and receive him into their body at Communion.

Which religion presents a picture of a God you want to believe in? Why would one want to turn away from an unconditionally loving, merciful God? Isn't that what every heart yearns for? Who would want to have to save themselves? Not me! Only those who do not know anything better would accept less than the God Christians worship.

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2) How do I know the Bible isn't made up
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How do we know any ancient literature isn't made up? How do we know it is as old as it is? There are some writings that we have only one copy of, like the Iliad, that we accept as being of ancient origin. How much more can we trust that the many manuscripts of the Bible are legit because they say the same thing no matter where they were copied. The Bible would not have been copied and preserved if it had not been believed to be of great value. Those closer to the time the Bible was written should know more than us Johnny-come-lately folks.

Letter to my senators:
I hear Sen Frist wants a constitutional amendment defining marriage. http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-29-frist-gay-marriage_x.htm

I would prefer he support an amendment that says that privacy rights do not extend to crimes. The "right to privacy" that is not in the Constitution allows abortion, sodomy, and who knows what in the future. This "right" has to be limited to unreasonable searches and self-incrimination as the forefathers intended. I can also understand that some privacy is necessary (for medical records, for example), but I think it needs to be spelled out more clearly.

From the Christianity.com forum:
Perhaps you have picked up on my disillusionment with the US government today. It seems no matter what laws our representatives pass, the Supreme Court will overturn them by judicial fiat. The Supreme Court seems hell-bent on usurping the will of the people with the individual privacy "rights" of a few. The Supreme Court is making our country more secular by the day.

"Our government could recoil on us on a whim" happened yesterday when the Supreme Court struck down sodomy laws in the US. The "right to privacy" came into being when the Supreme Court struck down laws against contraception, which has led to legal abortion and euthanasia, and now sodomy. The Supreme Court might as well have made atheism the official state religion of the US yesterday.

This makes me wish that there had never been a trend toward secularization and that the moral authority of the Catholic Church could have some clout. The individual seems to have too much power and little concern is given to the welfare of the society. It makes me wish all the more that the scism within Christianity had never happened, because that is the origin of the loss of respect for authority.

The privacy "rights" of the individual is closely related to private interpretation of Scripture. Some have taken that to mean everyone gets to make their own rules. The "anything goes, do what feels good" attitude is legal now. The people can't make laws against anything when that attitude is legal.

From the Christianity.com forum:

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In Reply To
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Shouldn't speak having come w/ 2 cents to offer & run, (51pages!)
just thinking when Government joins w/church, double minded comes to mind.
Know what i mean, Vern?

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Maybe I know what you mean and maybe I don't. I'll take a stab at it though.

The trend toward secularization began during the Enlightenment when people revolted against monarchs. That is when different forms of government were experimented with. In the US, democracy was one of those experiments as was separation of church and state. From the 300's to the 1500's, there was one set of laws, made by the church, and no civil law. The kings interferred in church matters and there was a lot of tension between the two. The interference was not good for either the church or the state. But the problem is that people revolted against ALL authority whether it came from a king or a pope. The Enlightenment promoted a different view of God; He was not involved with man anymore after He created man. Laws should be based on reason, not the Bible, they said.

Civil laws in the US were parallel to church laws until the current era. In the last thirty years, there has been a divergence. This comes from the idea that "Why should people who do not believe in God or morality have to obey laws that are based on the Bible?" Gradually, the "right to privacy" has trumped the basic morality on which civil laws were based. (Perhaps that is why there is such a fight about displaying the 10 commandments in courthouses?) They old traditional ways of morality have caved into the "do what feels good" trend.


We're at the point where the civil law and church morality have become so far apart it is double-minded. People could become confused in not knowing which way to go. I'm afraid it will only get worse in the future. The hopeful part of me wants people to wake up and say we've gone too far and it is time to get back to traditional morality and put that back into civil law. A part of me is in favor of separation of church and state, but another part of me wishes there were a way the church could have more influence on the morality reflected in the laws. I guess Christians will have to change people's hearts so that we can get laws that reflect our values. Anyway, God will judge which way is best.

From the Christianity.com forum:
----Quote-----
So I asked her [a Catholic] if she was saved and she said she didnt know.

She asked what that meant and I told her. She seemed like she had never heard of such. After a brief explanation of salvation, I asked her if she wanted this, and she accecpted.
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Catholics believe salvation and santification are not separate. I think Protestants separate them, but I'm not sure. So Catholics talk a lot about becoming holy. Salvation is assumed for those who are cooperating with God's grace. Salvation is like an inheritance given freely to all God's children who are baptized. You have to do something very bad to get disinherited. Our free will lets us choose to reject God's gift through serious sin.
There are some Catholics though, who have a "going through the motions" attitude. They may need your help to trust Jesus' love for them and surrender control of their life to Jesus. But I guess that is a common problem with most folks. That "leap of faith" part is hard. They may not have a high emotional experience in their relationship with Jesus, but that does not mean they are not "saved". Catholics will all agree that we are redeemed by the death and resurrection of Jesus. Please don't think they need to change denominations just because they don't understand your jargon nor have an emotional relationship with Jesus. Jesus asked us to obey the commandments and repent, not have an emotional experience. You won't find Catholics wondering whether they are really saved if they don't feel excited about their faith.

gracerest9
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That then brings up the question as to whether the "church" is the "decider of truth" or the Spirit is the revealer of truth. What a can of worms.
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Here are some good web sites to answer your question.
http://abcsoffaith.com/temp1/howfndt1.htm HOW TO FIND JESUS' TRUE CHURCH

http://catholicoutlook.com/questions.html Some Tough Questions for “Bible Christians”
Protestants usually claim that they all agree “on the important things.” Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?
Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

Here are some good verses to answer your question.
Eph 5:25-26 ... Christ loved the Church.
1 Tim 3:15 ... church is pillar/foundation of truth.
Mt 16:18; 20:20 ... Christ protects Church.
Heb 13:17 ... obey.
Mt 18:17-18 ... church as final authority.
Mt 23:2 ... Pharisees succeeded Moses (seat of Moses).
1 Cor 5:5; 1 Tim 1:20 ... excommunication.

The Holy Spirit is the revealer of truth, but all things must be tested and consistent with what was taught before.
2 Thess 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle."
2 Peter 1:20 no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of personal interpretation."
2 Peter 3:15-16","and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. "

prayforthem,
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I would like to know, too!!! Especially since I go to a church that is a part of this movement and teaches the "speak and it shall come to pass". It's in the Bible, in Proverbs. "Life and death is in the power of the tounge."
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I think we can hope God will answer prayers that are in agreement with his will, but I don't think I am God's boss. I can't tell God what to do. I am not in control of the universe. Asking God to give me healing or a jet is not always in agreement with God's will for me. I have experienced God's healing power but I never commanded him to heal me. It would not be humble to do so. "Not my will, but thine be done."

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I think the reason why a lot of Christians say it is "false" Christianity is because we teach *positivity*. We teach that your life is in your controll, that God desires for you to have good things.
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Sometimes, the best thing for us is to suffer for a while because it strengthens our faith and teaches us the virtue of patience and endurance as Job found out. Some folks are obsessed with self-fulfillment, self-help, and oftentimes, outright selfishness, rather than the traditional Christian stress on suffering, sacrifice, and service. I watched Kenneth Hagan a few times. It seems he is in this camp. He said he prayed for God to give him a jet. Meanwhile, people in Africa are starving. Why doesn't he sell the jet and send the money to starving people? Matthew 4 tells us that the temptation to have power and be in control is not God's will.

1 Peter 1:7 "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

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Christianity has a history of gloom and doom, and total power trips- most of us who were raised in the church were raised to believe that God doesn't want us to ever be happy (ever), that anything good we want for our lives, God doesn't want it, that we have to suffer for God, etc. .....To some Christians, God always has to be mean and abusive.
-----End Quote-----
Have you thought about the biblical doctrine of mortifying the flesh, or, suffering with Christ ? See Mt 10:38; 16:24: Rom 8:13,17; 1 Cor 12:24-26; Phil 3:10; 1 Pet 4:1,13. Mt 10:38 says, "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."

That doesn't mean God does not want us to be happy. My happiness comes from knowing, loving and serving God and neighbor, not in prosperity and comfort in this life. I want to be what Philippians 3:10 says. " That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" I do this out of love for God, not out of fear of God. I am willing to serve him no matter how uncomfortable it makes me. I do door-to-door evangelization to invite people to church, though I hate talking to strangers, but I am obedient to what God has called me to do. If I am obedient in small things, I am training myself to be obedient in larger things.

Catholics believe man was created good, but is deprived of grace and therefore has a tendency to sin. We don't believe that "snow-covered dung heap" stuff. Luther invented that "man is depraved" stuff. I don't believe the doom and gloom either. We look forward to being in the presence of God and that is something to be joyful about.

blurbsky,
The Catholic Church needed to compile a list of saints because they made a rule against selling relics of saints, some of which were fakes. They had to make a list of the dead people for whom this rule applied. For example, it is customary to have an estate sale after someone dies. That would be OK. But what was happening was people were selling possessions of people considered saints. How can that be illegal if estate sales are OK? The list of people whose possessions could or could not be sold solved the problem. The list of saints is like being inducted into the Christian's Hall of Fame. If we can have a Hall of Fame for dogs, why not people? Honest! There is a Hall of Fame for dogs!

Mt 7:16-20 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ...
1 John 4:1 "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Mt 7:16-20 tells us we can know who is holy by the way they lived. Their lives are tested by what they wrote, the virtues they lived, how many people they led to Christ, and whether they set a good example for the rest of us. The people on the list of saints are thoroughly investigated.
Mt 16:18-19 says the Church has the authority to make rules (bind and loose was legal language for judging) for believers and it is protected from error. "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

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They have recieved strong delusions whether it be a marian apparition or a bleeding eucharist. There are many other examples in many other false religions as well.

I sincerely doubt anyone who is telling people who is in heaven and who is not right now when they don't know the condition of that person's heart.
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Since you say, "they don't know the condition of that person's heart." how do you know " They have recieved strong delusions whether it be a marian apparition or a bleeding eucharist"? If you don't admit they can know whether someone is holy in spite of what Mt 7:16-20 tells us, then how do YOU know they are delusional? Aren't you doing exactly what you say is impossible? Check out http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html and see the results of a Eucharistic miracle with your own eyes. The says, "The Event took place in the 8th century A.D. in the little Church of St. Legontian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk's doubt about Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist. During Holy Mass, after the two-fold consecration, the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine was changed into live Blood, which coagulated into five globules, irregular and differing in shape and size." Is that a delusion? Go see it yourself in Lanciano, Italy.

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Did I mention that some of these people who were 'popes' in the past were proven to not even exist!
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Check out this web site: http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/popelist.htm It gives links to the biography of each of the 265 popes. I don't know where you get your information, but it is not accurate history.

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I've stated in other threads that my husband and I have considered leaving our church, one of the issues is that they teach baptismal regeneration. While I do not believe that baptism saves people, I wonder what the point is of intentionally not getting baptised?
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Titus 3:5-6 "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" 1 Pet 3:18-22 "For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit. In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God 7 for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him." Both these verses say baptism saves us. That's pretty clear to me.

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Oh and on Baptism, what does the Christian Writings say about age? How to do it? etc? Do we have actual 'rules' or only examples and we may not know the actual rules?
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Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8 says whole households were baptized. Presumably, there were some very young children in those households. Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16 all say "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." While these verses do not mention baptism, I think it would be hindering children from coming to Jesus if one keeps them from being baptized. Salvation is not earned, so what better way to symbolize that than letting little, powerless children come to him. Let them become part of God's covenant family too by washing away original sin (Ps 51:5, Rom 5:12-19, 1 Cor 15) so that they may inherit eternal life.

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Acts 2:38-39 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."

Col 2:11-12 "In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
This means circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Gen 17:12) was replaced by baptism.

Jn 3:5; "Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born 3 from above." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?" Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, NO ONE CAN ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT BEING BORN OF WATER and Spirit." Jesus is not talking about amniotic fluid here. That is reading between the lines. Baptism is how we receive "the gift of the holy Spirit" and "newness of life."

Rom 6:4 "We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life."

If both Jesus and Peter say we need to be baptized, why do people think it is optional? I can include baptism of desire (wanting to be baptized) and blood (martyrdom) as being the same as water baptism, but why argue about what Scripture plainly says?

Perhaps this issue seems sticky because you assume that salvation is instantaneous, not a process and that sanctification is separate from initial salvation. If one changes these assumptions, Scripture makes more sense. If salvation is a process, then sin and repentance are part of the journey; part of the process of surrendering control of our lives to Jesus. Gradually, we become more like Jesus because our love for Him increases and we don't want to offend him. However, I think we still sin in minor ways (1 John 5:17) because of our weakness. Through grace, we become more cooperative. Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy." (1 Pet 1:14) We keep coming back like the prodigal son. Jn 14:15 & 21 if you love me, keep my commandments. The word "commandments" does not sound optional to me. When Paul says "works of the law", he is talking about the 613 Jewish laws, not the 10 commandments.

Where does works fit into this? Good deeds strengthen our faith. Luke 6:47-49 says, "I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built. But the one who listens and does not act is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed." Mt 25:31-46 tells us that those who fail to do good will be punished.

"Repentance from dead works" means the Hebrews were starting to follow the Judaizers who taught that Christians had to follow the 613 laws of Torah. Romans 3:28 "For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law." echoes this theme. Paul wanted them to practice the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1:5.) , "good works" (Rom 2:7) "put to death the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13) and "put on the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom13:14). Paul told them grace was necessary to do this. (Rom 5:21). Heb 10:13 says, "...now [Jesus] waits until his enemies are made his footstool." That means Jesus is waiting for us to conquer the world by preaching the Gospel. "We must consider how to rouse one another to love and good works." (Heb 10:24) because "And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.' " (Mt 25:40) and "I will give to each according to his deeds." (Rev 22:12 and Rev 20:12)

From the forum:

Presby,
No one ever forces anyone to become a priest. As I said, "One does not apply for seminary if one does not voluntarily decide to remain single." This is not because marriage if evil, but because foregoing a family is a big sacrifice for God. A man would be less willing to die for the faith if it meant his children would be orphaned. Who knows? It's not likely to happen in this country, but in other parts of the world this is an issue. By remaining single, he is able to work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and get paid peanuts without a wife complaining. There is no temptation to nepotism in the clergy, either. It's a matter of being practical. Very few men are cut out to be a priest. Only by the grace of God are these men able to forego a family.

You say, "...priests are turning into pedophiles." Catholic priests who do these things are homosexual, so marriage would not cure the situation. Pedophilia applies to those less than 12, which is not always the case in the recent scandal. Also, there are 45,000 priests in this country. Only a couple hundred are bad and they are mostly from the liberal east and west coast, not the mid-west. There are about two-thirds of 1% that have been involved, which is less than the general population. Most pedophilia happens at the hands of the child's own relatives, but it is also happens in public schools at the hands of public school teachers. No one talks about how much of this goes on there. Perhaps the media have an agenda of destroying the reputation of the RCC because they are mad that the RCC calls homosexual behavior a sin and is against same-sex marriage?

When the Southern Baptists had a convention last year, one of the speakers told folks not to be happy that this is happening to Catholics because the media could come after the Baptists next. Anyone who stands up for traditional values will be attacked by the liberal media in this country. At least the SBC has been warned what could happen.

You wrote, "Roman Catholic Church is still, hundreds of years later, too self-idolatrous to admit their mistakes or to even admit that the Pope makes any mistakes when he's acting in his official capacity."
That's not what I see. The meeting of the bishops in Dallas last year was the beginning of some reforms. Every Catholic who ministers to kids has had to attend training classes this year on this topic. I think there will be a lot more scrutiny about who we let work with kids and they will be more careful never to be alone with a child. Most ministers have been doing that for a long time, anyway so it is not a big change, but everyone is more cautious. As for the Pope being infallible, Mt 16:18-19 says Jesus gave Peter the keys of heaven and the authority to bind and loose and said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. He was referring to Is 22:22; Rev 1:18 where the keys are a symbol of authority. In Is 22, the keys were given to the Prime Minister who acted in the king's name. The Pope's infalliblity is guaranteed by Scripture. Otherwise, the gates of hell would prevail against his church and cause disunity in the Body of Christ. The devil wants to divide and conquer, so I prefer to stick with the one and only church Christ founded.

From the forum:
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As far as "getting the girl" or marriage if you were thinking about that eventually, it's the Catholics who think that there is something inherently bad about marriage, tolerating it as a lesser optional evil only for laypersons and forbidding it for clergy.
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I disagree with this statement. It's no where near the truth. The RCC believes marriage is a sacrament and forbids divorce and remarriage, but not marriage for the first time. In this way, it is one of the most pro-marriage/pro-family denominations around. Lots of ecclesial communities have caved to pressure to allow divorce and remarriage though Matthew 19:9 forbids it.

As for unmarried clergy, being single is part of the package. One does not apply for seminary if one does not voluntarily decide to remain single. Why it this a requirement? Scripture recommends it. Matthew 19:12 (NIV) "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage BECAUSE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. The one who can accept this should accept it."

1 Corinthians 7:32 "I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife--"

Celibacy is a discipline of the RCC, not a doctrine. It is something that we could change because Scripture does not require it. It is something we think is in the best interest of the RCC at this time. Unmarried clergy are freer to serve God because they have no wife and children to support. They would be more free to preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth if they don't have to worry about the safety of their children.

I hope this helps you understand the RCC's position.

The House will vote on a ban on partial birth abortion today. Write your Congressman. http://www.house.gov/writerep/

Acts said
>>Here we go with the name caling of being an heretic again. Thats OK. The Apostles were labeled as a heretic, and the reason that the Ctholic church ordered the death of so many saints was because the POPE said that they were heretics because they refused the trinitarian doctrine. "Heretic" has always been the name that the world has labeled those who follow scripture and not the main-stream follow the crowd religion. <<

The doctrine of the Trinity was defined by an ecumenical council of Nicea in 325 AD. That means representative bishops from all over the Christian world made this decision, not just the pope.

We live in an age of heterodox doctrine. We are supposed to tolerate widely divergent doctrines that conflict in spite of the disunity in the Body of Christ. It's an era where morality is relative and the ends justify the means. In ages past, that was not the cultural view. There was no separation of church and state, so heresy was considered treason. Religion was the unifying bond in a society. We can't say that our era is right and previous eras were wrong if we also believe that it is OK to disagree on doctrine. If we think it is wrong to judge the beliefs of those who are alive, we have no right to judge the beliefs of those who are dead. That would be inconsistent. The Council of Nicea believed they were following Scripture and what the apostles taught.

TNBeloved said

>>The Pope didn't come around in existence until about 590 AD. That's approximately 6 centuries after Pentecost. <<

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm has The List of Popes from 33 AD to now. John Paul II is the 265th pope. It took awhile for the pope to be called pope, but the office exixted from the beginning. Check this site http://www. catholic .com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp for more info. Take out the spaces in the URL.

This is a hopeful sign:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/news/infonet/infonet03-06-03.htm#north
North Carolina Methodists Fight Conference on Abortion
Fayetteville, NC—This week, when United Methodists from across Eastern North Carolina gather for their yearly meeting, they will consider three resolutions that attempt to change the denomination’s decades-old statement of support for abortion. If approved, the resolutions would be forwarded to the national denomination’s top legislative body, the General Conference.

Rdood,

I'd like to offer some help in finding a new denomination. Here are a couple web sites that will help you compare Calvanism to Catholicism. I want you to consider Catholicism because it is the original, historic Christianity. There are lots of myths about what Catholics believe that aren't true. When most people check the facts, they find a ton of Biblical truth and a lot to like. Some of the myths were started by cohorts of King Henry VIII because he wanted to take property away from the Catholic church and give it to the Anglicans. Here are the web sites:
http://www.jamesakin.com > Files > Grace, Free Will, & Predestination > A Tiptoe Through TULIP

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ103.HTM
150 Reasons Why I am a Catholic
Featuring 300 Biblical Evidences Favoring Catholicism

Catholics have many things in common with Protestants -- we are redeemed by the death/resurrection of Jesus, the Trinity, inerrancy of the Bible, 10 commandments -- all the basic Christian stuff.

Personally, I love being Catholic because I can receive the body and blood of Jesus in the Eucharist. I can't get a more intimate or personal relationship with Jesus in most Protestant denominations. This is the center of my life.

I also love the way Catholicism fits the Bible. We're the ones who wrote and compiled it, so naturally it fits every page. I don't have to read between the lines, ignore certain passages or try to understand verses that conflict with a preconceived doctrine. The doctrines fit Scripture like a glove.

Catholicism will never follow the latest liberal fad or cave to popular opinion. It is steadfast on pro-family, pro-life, and old-fashioned morality. It is neither excessively liberal or excessively conservative.

Despite being old-fashioned, it can be very lively in its worship style. We have charismatic prayer and praise groups and contempory music if you look for it. Our youth groups are often called Life Teen. On college campuses, you can find Newman Centers. There is a worship style to fit everyone.

You ask, "How could a be a member of something that says that as long as Hitler repented on his death bed, he and mother Theresa end up equal?" I think this shows God's mercy. Remember the parable about the men that were hired in the morning getting paid the same as the guys hired late in the day? It's like that. Rev 22:12 says, "Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy." "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."

Too bad you didn't get a scholarship. A college education will give you a better life if you study something that leads to a good job. It may be worthwhile to take out student loans because you will earn more money --- more than enough to pay off the loans and then some. It's a good idea to find out how well a career pays and the availability of jobs before you decide on a career. A good education will help you support a family and that is attractive to women. College is a nice place to find smart, self-disciplined women. The trick is to find a woman with good morals because that is the kind of woman that makes a good wife and mother.

John F. Kennedy said, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." The same is true in the spiritual life. You will find more fulfillment by asking yourself what you can do for God. That's what gives life meaning. The rest will follow.

Ephesians432,
Are you assuming that I don't direct my prayer to Jesus? If so, you misunderstand me. Jesus is the focus of all Catholic prayer. If I ask you to pray for me, does that take anything away from Jesus?

Personally, I don't pray to dead saints. I prefer to pray to Jesus. Besides, the ones in heaven are not dead (Mk 12:26-27). They are alive in Christ. Jesus is not one to hog his role as mediator. He shares everything and is jealous of no one. He told us we would do even greater deeds than he did. All mediation is through Jesus, whether directly or indirectly. Look at Jn 15:1-8 ... vine and its branches.
1 Cor 12:25-27; Rom 12:4-5 ... body of Christ.
Eph 6:18; Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 1:11 ... intercessory prayer.
Jos 5:14; Dan 8:17; Tob 12:16 ... veneration of angels united with God (Mt 18:10).
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 ... saints also united with God.
Lk 20-34-38 ... those who died are like angels.
2 Mac 15:11-16 ... deceased Onias and Jeremiah interceded for Jews.
Rev 8:3-4; Jer 15:1 ... saints' intercession.

http://www.geocities.com/ucds1618/earlychurch.htm Was the Early Church Protestant?

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/03121.htm Against Marcion By Tertullian Marcion taught a heresy of an evil and a good god. Marcion wanted to delete all the books of the bible except his heavily edited version of Luke. Tertullian wrote to refute this heresy. If Catholics had wanted to be pagan, they would not have refuted it.

For the first three centuries, Christianity was a persecuted religion. Since Catholicism was the only form of Christianity, this means there were Catholic people who would prefer to burn at the stake than burn a pinch of incense to Caesar. Read about one of them, Justin the Martyr at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08580c.htm
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Pope St. Gregory wrote to St. Augustine "The temples of the idols in that nation ought not to be destroyed but let the idols that are in them be cast down; let water be blessed and sprinkled in the said temples and let altars be built and relics placed therein. For if those temples be well built it is meet that they be converted from the worship of devils to the service of the true God."

That there are parallels in pagan religions with some of the things Catholics do does not prove a cause and effect relationship. Perhaps the pagans imitated Catholics. Perhaps there is no influence on each other at all. Perhaps it is just coincidence. The Spanish conquerors found Mayans who believed one day a God would die for his people and they would then stop sacrificing people. This God was supposed to come in exactly the year the conquerors landed. Perhaps the Holy Spirit taught them this and that is why it was so easy to convert millions of Mexicans to Christianity. It certainly didn't hurt that a picture of Mary miraculously appeared on a peasant's tilma either. At the sight of this tilma, 8 million converted to Christianity in 10 years. One can still see it at Our Lady of Guadalupe church in Mexico City. Miraculously, this tilma has never rotted as one would expect. No one is required to believe this, but perhaps Jesus wants such things to happen this way. One can judge this by the fruit it bore. The human sacrifices stopped. I think that is good fruit.

Perhaps you need to think that Jesus works through things and people in mysterious ways, not just mentally or spiritually. We have bodies that God can use to reach our souls. I don't limit God's power to just using my mind to know him. I think God knows we need tangible things too.

Re: Predestination
Is it possible we are predestined to be a child of God and that is not the same as being predestined to eternal salvation? We have the free will to resist grace or cooperate with God. "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you" (Acts 7:51). Jesus died to save the whole world. 1 John 2:1-4 "My children, I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD. The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, "I know him," but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him." What happens if we don't keep his commandments? 1 John 2:1-4 says we have to do that.

There are people who receive some salvation-related graces from the Holy Spirit which do not of themselves bring those people to full and final salvation. Hebrews 6:4-6, speaks of people "who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and have fallen away."

If one does not resist God and his grace, then one cooperates with God and his grace. "And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with (sunergountos) them [the apostles] and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it. Amen" (Mark 16:20). God cooperates with men in producing salvation, since that is the goal (and result) of the apostles' preaching mission. "We know that in everything God works for good with (sunergei eis agathon) those who love him, who are called according to his purpose" (Romans 8:28). There is synergism between God and man. "Working together with (sunergountes) him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1). This shows that some of God's graces can be accepted but then made vain. "For we are God's fellow workers (sunergoi); you are God's field, God's building" (1 Corinthians 3:9). This verse shows men cooperate with God. These verses make clear that graces which lead toward salvation can be resisted. This cooperation or resistance is what determines our salvation.
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Q: Do Catholics believe "Outside the Church there is no salvation" ?

A: I think what you want is at http://www.cin.org/v2church.html. Lumen Gentium is one of the documents of Vatican II which was held almost 35 years ago.
Lumen Gentium paragraph 15 says, "The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth."

Paragraph 14 deals with the Catholic faithful. It is in this context that you find, "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved."

Paragraph 16 deals with those who have not yet received the Gospel.

Also, you should know about "Dominus Iesus", which tried to clarify Lumen Gentium. Some Catholics thought it meant that it didn't matter which doctrines one believed, so "Dominus Iesus" tried to clarify how non-Catholics and non-Christians could possibly be saved. Start with Para 20.
I found this commentary on "Dominus Iesus" http://www.usccb.org/seia/kasper.htm
"The Declaration "Dominus Iesus", ( http://www.cin.org/docs/dominus-iesus.html ) published in September 2000 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has sparked off various reactions by different people and communities, also by Jews.

Obviously, there have been some misunderstandings. The highly technical language of this document for the instruction of Catholic theologians- a document that is perhaps a little too densely written- raised misunderstandings on the very meaning and intention of the text among people who are not very familiar with Catholic theological "jargon" and with the rules of its correct interpretation. Many of these reactions appear to be based on information which obviously uninformed secular mass-media have thrown into the arena of public opinion."

After 450 years of being split, the Catholic dictionary has some meanings that are not held in common with others. The RCC has multiple definitions for the word salvation that you don't find in Protestant circles. The book The Salvation Controversy by James Akin explains this.

On Agnostic and not wanting to be so :-( forum:
Quote --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

do you believe that only those who ascribe to Catholic dogma have found truth? What if God wasn’t the power behind religion as we know it?

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My Reply:
All religions have some truth, even paganism because God has written the law on our hearts. We can all know the moral laws in the 10 commandments if we listen to our conscience. The question is whether all religions have the fullness of truth as revealed by Jesus. Any doctrine invented after the first century can't be his revealed truth. Only the Catholic and Greek Orthodox church can trace the origin of all doctrines to the 1st century. Jesus promised in Matt 16 that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. He did not say churchES. He only founded one church. If one sets aside all the garbage they think Catholics believe and find out what it actually teaches, they would find a faith that is consistent with the whole Bible and not have to ignore passages that don't fit their preconceived ideas. It would all make sense. After all, the Catholic church put the Bible together and decided what books would be included. It would be pretty stupid to include books that contradicted their teachings. Martin Luther, on the other hand, took out 7 books from the OT because they had verses that contradicted his teaching. In the process of making a gospel he was comfortable with, he truncated some important stuff. So some truth is missing. True, Catholics and Protestants have much in common, but we differ on some important understandings about salvation. We are not one as Jesus is with the Father, and that is a sad state of affairs. I want us to treat each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. The only way to do that is to follow what Christianity was in the beginning, not what Martin Luther, Calvin or Zwingli or some later founders taught. Let's get back to basics.
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On Once Saved, Always Saved forum:
Scripture talks about salvation in the Past, Present, Future Tenses.

Past Tense
Titus 3:4-8, Romans 8:29, 1 Cor 6:11

Present Tense
Jn 6:27-29, Heb 6:9-12, 1 Cor 15. 2, Eph 2:5-10, Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12

Future Tense
Romans 2:5--8, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15, 1 Tim 6:18-19, Heb 10:36-39, 2 Pet 1:10-11, 2 Pet 3:10-14, Galatians 3:23-24

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On One Verse Christianity forum:
What do I think are the most important Scripture verses?
These are very important to me:
John 3:5 "Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Titus 3:4-7 "But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."
1 John 3:24 "Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us."
1 John 2:6 says we ought to live as he [Jesus] lived.
Romans 1:4 says "Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;"
John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them."
James 2:17 "So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead."
James 2:24 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
2 Pet 1:10 "Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm, for, in doing so, you will never stumble."
James 5:14-16 "Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful."