from the forum at christianity.com "Reasons why you CAN loose your salvation "
ML,
You are asking about things that are beyond my expertise and interest. I don't know a lot about these areas and I don't care enough to comment. I have only provided links to web sites. You can discuss this with the webmasters of these sites if you want. I don't want to get in over my head and say something wrong.
http://servus.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/san/TSmary.html Tomb of the Virgin Mary Two places claim to be Mary's burial site, Jerusalem and Ephesus.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/AOFMARY.HTM That belief was ancient, dating back to the apostles themselves. What was clear from the beginning was that there were no relics of Mary to be venerated, and that an empty tomb stood on the edge of Jerusalem near the site of her death.
Church tradition relates that Mary was resurrected bodily and taken to heaven, the same reward that awaits all the righteous on the Last Day. What we celebrate is that Jesus's death and resurrection has opened the gates of heaven for us and our body will be reunited with our soul on the last day.
Catholics maintain that the veneration (hyperdulia) accorded Mary, while higher than that accorded any other creature, is infinitely lower than the worship (latria) reserved for Jesus.
As for Deprived v. Depraved, look at this site:
A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin
http://www.jamesakin.com/ go to "What Catholics believe about" then go to salvation, then predestination
Or look at these sites:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
We believe souls really are cleansed by an infusion of the supernatural life. Paul speaks of us as "a new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17), "created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness" . Ephesians 4:24 "and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
http://www.kofc.org/faith/hart/hart_I8forgiveness.cfm Depraved v deprived
Original Sin could be called "original selfishness." Our instincts are selfish. We are born with the selfishness principle in us by nature. This is observable even in infants. We do not, of course, personally blame them for being selfish, but as St. Augustine argued, "As we grow older we root out such ways and cast them from us: which means that we hold them to be bad — for no man engaged in removing evil would knowingly cast out what is good."
Original sin is a very unpopular idea in the modern world. But it is an essential part of the Christian gospel, and "[t]he Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ" (C 389). For sin is precisely what this "Savior" saves us from.
Original Sin does not mean that we are "totally depraved" (Calvin's term), or wholly evil, or more evil than good (how could that be measured?), or that our very being is evil, or that we are no longer infinitely valuable and infinitely loved by God. It means that we are mortally wounded, a defaced masterpiece. The greater the masterpiece, the more terrible its defacement is.
This is getting off topic, so I won't say more.
Tuesday, October 07, 2003
Monday, October 06, 2003
from the Roman Catholicism forum at christianity.com
----Quote----
I think you would do well to study the history of the Papacy more in depth. First, the idea that there was a bishop of Rome who was the vicar of Christ on earth in the early church is actually a fabrication of reality. In reality, such statements were even used as insults in the early church not as a position of honor. Since there were no Popes in the early church, it is safe to say that there is no succession for the Roman Catholic Church back to Peter either.
----End Quote----
Martin Luther,
Here is the history of the first four popes.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P1497_696002 THE CHURCH HISTORY OF EUSEBIUS. Book III.Chapter II. "The First Ruler of the Church of Rome.1 After the martyrdom of Paul and of Peter, Linus14 was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome. Paul mentions him, when writing to Timothy from Rome, in the salutation at the end of the epistle.15 "
Chapter XIII. Anencletus, the Second Bishop of Rome."After Vespasian had reigned ten years Titus, his son, succeeded him.136 In the second year of his reign, Linus, who had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years,137 delivered his office to Anencletus.138 But Titus was succeeded by his brother Domitian after he had reigned two years and the same number of months.139"
Chapter XV. Clement, the Third Bishop of Rome."In the twelfth year of the same reign Clement succeeded Anencletus142 after the latter had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years. The apostle in his Epistle to the Philippians informs us that this Clement was his fellow-worker. His words are as follows:143 "With Clement arid the rest of my fellow-laborers whose names are in the book of life."
Chapter XVI. The Epistle of Clement. "There is extant an epistle of this Clement144 which is acknowledged to be genuine and is of considerable length and of remarkable merit.145 He wrote it in the name of the church of Rome to the church of Corinth, when a sedition had arisen in the latter church.146 We know that this epistle also has been publicly used in a great many churches both in former times and in our own.147 And of the fact that a sedition did take place in the church of Corinth at the time referred to Hegesippus is a trustworthy witness.148"
Chapter XXXIV. Evarestus, the Fourth Bishop of the Church of Rome. "1 In the third year of the reign of the emperor mentioned above,339 Clement340 committed the episcopal government of the church of Rome to Evarestus,341 and departed this life after he had superintended the teaching of the divine word nine years in all."
Notice that Clement was writing "in the name of the church". He wrote this while the apostle John was still alive and was living much closer to Corinth than Rome was. This shows that the bishop of Rome had authority that the other bishops did not. That fits the function of the pope as the RCC knows it, even if Clement is not called pope at the time.
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/popelist.htm has The Complete List of Popes, all 265 of them.
----Quote----
I think you would do well to study the history of the Papacy more in depth. First, the idea that there was a bishop of Rome who was the vicar of Christ on earth in the early church is actually a fabrication of reality. In reality, such statements were even used as insults in the early church not as a position of honor. Since there were no Popes in the early church, it is safe to say that there is no succession for the Roman Catholic Church back to Peter either.
----End Quote----
Martin Luther,
Here is the history of the first four popes.
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P1497_696002 THE CHURCH HISTORY OF EUSEBIUS. Book III.Chapter II. "The First Ruler of the Church of Rome.1 After the martyrdom of Paul and of Peter, Linus14 was the first to obtain the episcopate of the church at Rome. Paul mentions him, when writing to Timothy from Rome, in the salutation at the end of the epistle.15 "
Chapter XIII. Anencletus, the Second Bishop of Rome."After Vespasian had reigned ten years Titus, his son, succeeded him.136 In the second year of his reign, Linus, who had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years,137 delivered his office to Anencletus.138 But Titus was succeeded by his brother Domitian after he had reigned two years and the same number of months.139"
Chapter XV. Clement, the Third Bishop of Rome."In the twelfth year of the same reign Clement succeeded Anencletus142 after the latter had been bishop of the church of Rome for twelve years. The apostle in his Epistle to the Philippians informs us that this Clement was his fellow-worker. His words are as follows:143 "With Clement arid the rest of my fellow-laborers whose names are in the book of life."
Chapter XVI. The Epistle of Clement. "There is extant an epistle of this Clement144 which is acknowledged to be genuine and is of considerable length and of remarkable merit.145 He wrote it in the name of the church of Rome to the church of Corinth, when a sedition had arisen in the latter church.146 We know that this epistle also has been publicly used in a great many churches both in former times and in our own.147 And of the fact that a sedition did take place in the church of Corinth at the time referred to Hegesippus is a trustworthy witness.148"
Chapter XXXIV. Evarestus, the Fourth Bishop of the Church of Rome. "1 In the third year of the reign of the emperor mentioned above,339 Clement340 committed the episcopal government of the church of Rome to Evarestus,341 and departed this life after he had superintended the teaching of the divine word nine years in all."
Notice that Clement was writing "in the name of the church". He wrote this while the apostle John was still alive and was living much closer to Corinth than Rome was. This shows that the bishop of Rome had authority that the other bishops did not. That fits the function of the pope as the RCC knows it, even if Clement is not called pope at the time.
http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/articles/popelist.htm has The Complete List of Popes, all 265 of them.
from the forum at christianity.com
---- quote---
Ok, if you believe this, then who believed in the Bodily Assumption of Mary in the first three centuries? Who believed in Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Divine Meadiatrix? ----end quote---
I'm not an expert on Mary. I like to focus on Jesus. I prefer to believe that Revelation 12 is talking about Mary and leave it at that. It's not a big part of my spirituality. The Bible is the story of our salvation by Jesus. I'm not surprised that there isn't much in there about Mary. That doesn't mean these things aren't true, but it is not what we are supposed to focus on anyway.
The only patristics I can find on this topic are in Writings of Early Church Fathers - Volume 8
http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume08/apocrypha31.cfm THE PASSING OF ST. MARY (400 A.D.)
http://www.synaxis.org/ecf/volume08/ECF00066.htm#07c8f306 THE BOOK OF ST. JOHN CONCERNING THE FALLING ASLEEP OF ST. MARY (4th or 5th century)
I do not hold these writings to be inspired. They seem to indicate that the belief in the Bodily Assumption of Mary was not a modern invention.
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:TnvMVvjmV0wJ:www.northforest.com/catholic/00mary_ref.html+%22PASSING+OF+ST.+MARY%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 has a lot of patristic links about Mary.
http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/August/Aug-15.html#dormition
The circumstances of the Dormition of the Mother of God were known in the Orthodox Church from apostolic times. Already in the first century, the Hieromartyr Dionysios the Areopagite wrote about Her "Falling-Asleep." In the second century, the account of the bodily ascent of the Most Holy Virgin Mary to Heaven is found in the works of Meliton, Bishop of Sardis. In the fourth century, St. Epiphanios of Cyprus refers to the tradition about the "Falling-Asleep" of the Mother of God. In the fifth century, St. Juvenalios, Patriarch of Jerusalem, told the holy Byzantine Empress Pulcheria: "Although in Holy Scripture there is no account about the circumstances of Her death, we know about them otherwise from the most ancient and credible Tradition."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.
The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."
The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.
----quote---
Secondly, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with Augustine since he is one of the early church fathers for instance who believed in predestination as he was quoted all over the place by John Calvin in his Institutes. So, ma'am, I must ask you: What have you read on patrology? What is your background in reading the early church fathers? You are giving me a very biased veiw of church history, and I think you need to look deeper than what you are.
----end quote---
Catholics can believe in predestination as long as they don't believe in double predestination. Double predestination says God makes some people destined for hell and there is nothing they can do about this. But it is OK to say God foresaw who would go to heaven and gives them all the graces they need to respond to his grace. God foreknowledge does cause people to go to hell, but He knows who will reject His grace.
----quote---
At this point you are taking me from my context. I was referring to *Justification* not *salvation.* While I certainly agree that they are related, the distinction must be made. We look back on our justification, and as a result, we have a complete total and everlasting shalom as Romans 5:1 says.
----end quote---
Romans 5:1 says "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Yes, we are justified by faith, though not faith alone. God gives us grace to respond.
Protestantism separates justification from sanctification, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (e.g., Mt 5:20; 7:20-24; Rom 2:7-13; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Pet 1:2). Catholics do not separate them. These verses show that the two should not be separated:
Mt 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mt7:20-23 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22: On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
Rom 2:7-13
For he will render to every man according to his works: 7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11: For God shows no partiality. 12: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
1 Cor 6:11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Pet 1:2 "chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. "
-----quote----
I have dealt with James in my previous post. If you look at verse 18, he sets up the context of showing ones faith to others. It is in this context that he makes the statement in 2:21. Furthermore, again, you did not deal with the fact that I was talking about *Justification* and not *salvation.* It is Justification which is an action of the past resulting in our everlasting peace with God. The only passage addressing Abraham's Justification before God is Romans 4:3.
-----end quote----
Gen 15:6 & James 2:21 both passages talk about Abraham's righteousness. Are you saying that righteousness is not the same as justification or salvation? If so, how? At what point was Abraham "saved"?
---- quote---
Ok, if you believe this, then who believed in the Bodily Assumption of Mary in the first three centuries? Who believed in Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Divine Meadiatrix? ----end quote---
I'm not an expert on Mary. I like to focus on Jesus. I prefer to believe that Revelation 12 is talking about Mary and leave it at that. It's not a big part of my spirituality. The Bible is the story of our salvation by Jesus. I'm not surprised that there isn't much in there about Mary. That doesn't mean these things aren't true, but it is not what we are supposed to focus on anyway.
The only patristics I can find on this topic are in Writings of Early Church Fathers - Volume 8
http://www.catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchfathers/volume08/apocrypha31.cfm THE PASSING OF ST. MARY (400 A.D.)
http://www.synaxis.org/ecf/volume08/ECF00066.htm#07c8f306 THE BOOK OF ST. JOHN CONCERNING THE FALLING ASLEEP OF ST. MARY (4th or 5th century)
I do not hold these writings to be inspired. They seem to indicate that the belief in the Bodily Assumption of Mary was not a modern invention.
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:TnvMVvjmV0wJ:www.northforest.com/catholic/00mary_ref.html+%22PASSING+OF+ST.+MARY%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 has a lot of patristic links about Mary.
http://oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/August/Aug-15.html#dormition
The circumstances of the Dormition of the Mother of God were known in the Orthodox Church from apostolic times. Already in the first century, the Hieromartyr Dionysios the Areopagite wrote about Her "Falling-Asleep." In the second century, the account of the bodily ascent of the Most Holy Virgin Mary to Heaven is found in the works of Meliton, Bishop of Sardis. In the fourth century, St. Epiphanios of Cyprus refers to the tradition about the "Falling-Asleep" of the Mother of God. In the fifth century, St. Juvenalios, Patriarch of Jerusalem, told the holy Byzantine Empress Pulcheria: "Although in Holy Scripture there is no account about the circumstances of Her death, we know about them otherwise from the most ancient and credible Tradition."
http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
The doctrine of the Assumption says that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed, body and soul, into heaven, just as Enoch, Elijah, and perhaps others had been before her. It’s also necessary to keep in mind what the Assumption is not. Some people think Catholics believe Mary "ascended" into heaven. That’s not correct. Christ, by his own power, ascended into heaven. Mary was assumed or taken up into heaven by God. She didn’t do it under her own power.
The Church has never formally defined whether she died or not, and the integrity of the doctrine of the Assumption would not be impaired if she did not in fact die, but the almost universal consensus is that she did die. Pope Pius XII, in Munificentissimus Deus (1950), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life" (note the silence regarding her death), "was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven."
The possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second Coming is suggested by Matthew 27:52–53: "[T]he tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many." Did all these Old Testament saints die and have to be buried all over again? There is no record of that, but it is recorded by early Church writers that they were assumed into heaven, or at least into that temporary state of rest and happiness often called "paradise," where the righteous people from the Old Testament era waited until Christ’s resurrection (cf. Luke 16:22, 23:43; Heb. 11:1–40; 1 Pet. 4:6), after which they were brought into the eternal bliss of heaven.
----quote---
Secondly, I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with Augustine since he is one of the early church fathers for instance who believed in predestination as he was quoted all over the place by John Calvin in his Institutes. So, ma'am, I must ask you: What have you read on patrology? What is your background in reading the early church fathers? You are giving me a very biased veiw of church history, and I think you need to look deeper than what you are.
----end quote---
Catholics can believe in predestination as long as they don't believe in double predestination. Double predestination says God makes some people destined for hell and there is nothing they can do about this. But it is OK to say God foresaw who would go to heaven and gives them all the graces they need to respond to his grace. God foreknowledge does cause people to go to hell, but He knows who will reject His grace.
----quote---
At this point you are taking me from my context. I was referring to *Justification* not *salvation.* While I certainly agree that they are related, the distinction must be made. We look back on our justification, and as a result, we have a complete total and everlasting shalom as Romans 5:1 says.
----end quote---
Romans 5:1 says "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Yes, we are justified by faith, though not faith alone. God gives us grace to respond.
Protestantism separates justification from sanctification, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (e.g., Mt 5:20; 7:20-24; Rom 2:7-13; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Pet 1:2). Catholics do not separate them. These verses show that the two should not be separated:
Mt 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mt7:20-23 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21: "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22: On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23: And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'
Rom 2:7-13
For he will render to every man according to his works: 7: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
8: but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11: For God shows no partiality. 12: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
1 Cor 6:11And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1 Pet 1:2 "chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. "
-----quote----
I have dealt with James in my previous post. If you look at verse 18, he sets up the context of showing ones faith to others. It is in this context that he makes the statement in 2:21. Furthermore, again, you did not deal with the fact that I was talking about *Justification* and not *salvation.* It is Justification which is an action of the past resulting in our everlasting peace with God. The only passage addressing Abraham's Justification before God is Romans 4:3.
-----end quote----
Gen 15:6 & James 2:21 both passages talk about Abraham's righteousness. Are you saying that righteousness is not the same as justification or salvation? If so, how? At what point was Abraham "saved"?
Friday, October 03, 2003
from the Roman Catholicism forum at christianity.com
------ Quote---------
Betty,
I have read vast amounts of western history, but I appreciate the suggestion. I am also very keen, as a large chunk of my family are Catholic, of what the early history of Catholicism/RCC is.
But I also am very aware of how they are not the church that Jesus spoke of, nor are they ever mentioned in the Bible.
And Betty, as a Christian, that is what is the end all be all for me. Again, thank you for your time and effort, but I will always rely on the Bible.
------End Quote---------
If you like to read history, you'll be interested in this:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-05.htm#P518_306639 The Church History Of Eusebius.
Especially read these parts:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P1497_696002
Book III. Chapter III. The Epistles of the Apostles. Chapter IV. The First Successors of the Apostles
Chapter XXV. The Divine Scriptures that are Accept and Those that are Not.
Chapter XI Chapter XIII. are very interesting too.
These pages show that the church had an authority structure and that they went through a discernment period to decide which books belong in the Bible and which did not. The Bible did not fall out of the sky in a leather binding with gold edging. There is no inspired table of contents. If you say you will stick with your Bible, then you are trusting the authority of the Catholic Church to know which books belong in there and which do not. I think even a small glimpse of the history of the Bible would show this.
God bless,
Betty
------ Quote---------
Betty,
I have read vast amounts of western history, but I appreciate the suggestion. I am also very keen, as a large chunk of my family are Catholic, of what the early history of Catholicism/RCC is.
But I also am very aware of how they are not the church that Jesus spoke of, nor are they ever mentioned in the Bible.
And Betty, as a Christian, that is what is the end all be all for me. Again, thank you for your time and effort, but I will always rely on the Bible.
------End Quote---------
If you like to read history, you'll be interested in this:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-05.htm#P518_306639 The Church History Of Eusebius.
Especially read these parts:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-08.htm#P1497_696002
Book III. Chapter III. The Epistles of the Apostles. Chapter IV. The First Successors of the Apostles
Chapter XXV. The Divine Scriptures that are Accept and Those that are Not.
Chapter XI Chapter XIII. are very interesting too.
These pages show that the church had an authority structure and that they went through a discernment period to decide which books belong in the Bible and which did not. The Bible did not fall out of the sky in a leather binding with gold edging. There is no inspired table of contents. If you say you will stick with your Bible, then you are trusting the authority of the Catholic Church to know which books belong in there and which do not. I think even a small glimpse of the history of the Bible would show this.
God bless,
Betty
Thursday, October 02, 2003
from the Roman Catholicism forum at christianity.com
-----Quote-----
A leader? The only leader in our local church is the pastor. But he is not above us or in a special position. Jesus Christ is the head pastor of my church, not an infallible man. What the Bible says, goes, regardless of what human is up in front.
----- End Quote-----
In Acts 15, there was a council in Jerusalem to decide doctrinal issues about whether converts had to keep the Jewish law. The apostles, led by Peter, decided an issue that applied to the whole church, not just one locality.
In John 21, Jesus tells Peter to "feed my sheep." Are you suggesting that Jesus has sheep in only one locality? Peter went from Jerusalem (Acts 15) to Rome and was martyred there. Peter tended sheep in more than one locality.
To quote the KJV, Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
So the KJV supports the office of bishop. Likewise, the Bible supports an authority structure.
"1 Peter 5:5","Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters.",
Deuteronomy 17:12 states: And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die....
Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Rom 13:1-5 "Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore; whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval fromit, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. v. 1-5
"Hebrews 13:17","Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you. ",
-----Quote-----
A leader? The only leader in our local church is the pastor. But he is not above us or in a special position. Jesus Christ is the head pastor of my church, not an infallible man. What the Bible says, goes, regardless of what human is up in front.
----- End Quote-----
In Acts 15, there was a council in Jerusalem to decide doctrinal issues about whether converts had to keep the Jewish law. The apostles, led by Peter, decided an issue that applied to the whole church, not just one locality.
In John 21, Jesus tells Peter to "feed my sheep." Are you suggesting that Jesus has sheep in only one locality? Peter went from Jerusalem (Acts 15) to Rome and was martyred there. Peter tended sheep in more than one locality.
To quote the KJV, Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
So the KJV supports the office of bishop. Likewise, the Bible supports an authority structure.
"1 Peter 5:5","Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters.",
Deuteronomy 17:12 states: And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die....
Mt 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Rom 13:1-5 "Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore; whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval fromit, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. v. 1-5
"Hebrews 13:17","Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you. ",
Wednesday, October 01, 2003
from the Roman Catholicism forum at christianity.com
---Quote------
Berean responds,
The Mass is an abomination so there is no way Catholics are in heaven when it is celebrated. Christ died once. He does not die again outside of time.
That would mean the Lord is perpetually dead and alive at the same time.
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
---end Quote------
berean,
The entire vision in Revelation occurs on the Lord's Day. Rev 5 shows elders reading the scroll and angels worshiping the Lamb of God, which is a description of what happens at every Eucharist. The priest always prays that the angels will take our offering to heaven. Our sacrifice is "on earth as it is in heaven."
---Quote------
Christs sacrifice is finished. It is never repeated on earth or in heaven.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
---end Quote------
Show me the scripture verse that says we are to stop celebrating the Passover. True, we don't need to slaughter a lamb or goat anymore because Jesus is our Passover lamb. The Church nowhere teaches that Christ is resacrificed. But the Passover also includes a bread offering and a wine offering. This is what the Eucharist is all about. Jesus offered the bread and wine at the Last Supper and commanded his apostles to continue doing this.
Exodus 12:8 "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it."
What does the bread offering signify?
Leviticus 7:12 When anyone makes a peace offering in thanksgiving, together with his thanksgiving sacrifice he shall offer unleavened cakes mixed with oil, unleavened wafers spread with oil, and cakes made of fine flour mixed with oil and well kneaded. 13 His offering shall also include loaves of leavened bread along with the victim of his peace offering for thanksgiving.
Scripture commands us to keep the passover feast.1 Corinthians 5:7-8 " Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
"Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed." Lk.22.7
Acts 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
---Quote------
Christ did not institute a priesthood to perpetuate His finished sacrifice.
---end Quote------
That's not how the apostles thought. Exihibit A:
Acts 1:15-25 Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers. ... He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus..... For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'
Tit 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you-- 6if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7For a bishop[2] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
1 Tim 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
Matthew 28:16-20 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
John 20:21 "Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
(Lk 22:19) Do this in memory of me"
1 Corinthians 11:23-33 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
1 Corinthians 10:14-22,"I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
---Quote------
The plain meaning of "it is finished" should give you some sort of clue.
The plain meaning of "alive forever more" should give you some clue.
---end Quote------
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm
Scott Hahn's web site says,
"When we think about how Christ instituted the Eucharist, we're obviously taken back to the Upper Room. And just recall if you will some well known facts. He and the disciples were celebrating what well known feast? The Passover. .... "Now what's the problem? The problem is that gospel account says something like this: after the third cup is drunk Jesus says, "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I am entering into the kingdom of God." And it says, "Then they sang the psalms." Every Jew who knows the liturgy would expect: and then they went ahead and said the grace and the blessing and had the fourth cup which climaxed and consummated the Passover. But no, the gospel account say they sang the psalms and went out into the night.
When Jesus was on the cross, "They put a sponge full of the sour wine on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine he said the words that are spoken of in the fourth cup consummation, "It is finished." What is the it referring to? That grammatical question began really bothering me at some point. I asked several people and their response was usually, "Well, it means the work of redemption that Christ was working on." All right, that's true, I agree it does refer to that, but in context. An exegete, a trained interpreter of the word is supposed to find the contextual meaning, not just import a meaning from a theology textbook. What is Jesus speaking of when he says, "It is finished?" I mean, our redemption is not completed once he's not yet raised. Paul says, "He was raised for our justification." So what is the it talking about? He said, 'It is finished', and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit, his breath. The it, of course you realize by now, is the Passover sacrifice." That is, Jesus is not saying that his work of redemption is completely finished as you seem to think it is. If it were, why do you think you have to say the "sinner's prayer" to get "saved". Isn't that adding to the finished work of Christ? If it were really finished, all you'd have to do is be born.
---Quote------
We remember what He did.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Rome is a liar.
---end Quote------
Yes, in one sense the Eucharist is a memorial. But to the Jewish culture, memorial means much more than it does in the American culture. In Jewish culture, memorial means to re-present an event as if the event in the past were happening in the present moment. You can't take Scripture out of its Jewish context when you interpret it.
There is more on this at http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/sacrifice.html
---Quote------
Berean responds,
The Mass is an abomination so there is no way Catholics are in heaven when it is celebrated. Christ died once. He does not die again outside of time.
That would mean the Lord is perpetually dead and alive at the same time.
Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
---end Quote------
berean,
The entire vision in Revelation occurs on the Lord's Day. Rev 5 shows elders reading the scroll and angels worshiping the Lamb of God, which is a description of what happens at every Eucharist. The priest always prays that the angels will take our offering to heaven. Our sacrifice is "on earth as it is in heaven."
---Quote------
Christs sacrifice is finished. It is never repeated on earth or in heaven.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
---end Quote------
Show me the scripture verse that says we are to stop celebrating the Passover. True, we don't need to slaughter a lamb or goat anymore because Jesus is our Passover lamb. The Church nowhere teaches that Christ is resacrificed. But the Passover also includes a bread offering and a wine offering. This is what the Eucharist is all about. Jesus offered the bread and wine at the Last Supper and commanded his apostles to continue doing this.
Exodus 12:8 "And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it."
What does the bread offering signify?
Leviticus 7:12 When anyone makes a peace offering in thanksgiving, together with his thanksgiving sacrifice he shall offer unleavened cakes mixed with oil, unleavened wafers spread with oil, and cakes made of fine flour mixed with oil and well kneaded. 13 His offering shall also include loaves of leavened bread along with the victim of his peace offering for thanksgiving.
Scripture commands us to keep the passover feast.1 Corinthians 5:7-8 " Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."
"Then came the Day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover Lamb had to be sacrificed." Lk.22.7
Acts 2:42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
---Quote------
Christ did not institute a priesthood to perpetuate His finished sacrifice.
---end Quote------
That's not how the apostles thought. Exihibit A:
Acts 1:15-25 Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers. ... He said, "My brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled which the holy Spirit spoke beforehand through the mouth of David, concerning Judas, who was the guide for those who arrested Jesus..... For it is written in the Book of Psalms: 'Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.' And: 'May another take his office.'
Tit 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you-- 6if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7For a bishop[2] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
Acts 15:24 Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind,
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
1 Tim 5:22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
Matthew 28:16-20 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
John 20:21 "Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
(Lk 22:19) Do this in memory of me"
1 Corinthians 11:23-33 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. If we discerned ourselves, we would not be under judgment; but since we are judged by (the) Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world. Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
1 Corinthians 10:14-22,"I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
---Quote------
The plain meaning of "it is finished" should give you some sort of clue.
The plain meaning of "alive forever more" should give you some clue.
---end Quote------
http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/4thCup.htm
Scott Hahn's web site says,
"When we think about how Christ instituted the Eucharist, we're obviously taken back to the Upper Room. And just recall if you will some well known facts. He and the disciples were celebrating what well known feast? The Passover. .... "Now what's the problem? The problem is that gospel account says something like this: after the third cup is drunk Jesus says, "I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until I am entering into the kingdom of God." And it says, "Then they sang the psalms." Every Jew who knows the liturgy would expect: and then they went ahead and said the grace and the blessing and had the fourth cup which climaxed and consummated the Passover. But no, the gospel account say they sang the psalms and went out into the night.
When Jesus was on the cross, "They put a sponge full of the sour wine on hyssop and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine he said the words that are spoken of in the fourth cup consummation, "It is finished." What is the it referring to? That grammatical question began really bothering me at some point. I asked several people and their response was usually, "Well, it means the work of redemption that Christ was working on." All right, that's true, I agree it does refer to that, but in context. An exegete, a trained interpreter of the word is supposed to find the contextual meaning, not just import a meaning from a theology textbook. What is Jesus speaking of when he says, "It is finished?" I mean, our redemption is not completed once he's not yet raised. Paul says, "He was raised for our justification." So what is the it talking about? He said, 'It is finished', and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit, his breath. The it, of course you realize by now, is the Passover sacrifice." That is, Jesus is not saying that his work of redemption is completely finished as you seem to think it is. If it were, why do you think you have to say the "sinner's prayer" to get "saved". Isn't that adding to the finished work of Christ? If it were really finished, all you'd have to do is be born.
---Quote------
We remember what He did.
Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
Rome is a liar.
---end Quote------
Yes, in one sense the Eucharist is a memorial. But to the Jewish culture, memorial means much more than it does in the American culture. In Jewish culture, memorial means to re-present an event as if the event in the past were happening in the present moment. You can't take Scripture out of its Jewish context when you interpret it.
There is more on this at http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/sacrifice.html
Thursday, September 25, 2003
from the Reasons why you CAN lose your salvation forum:
I need to summarize my position on this topic. Here's a good site that clarifies the issue.
http://members.tripod.com/~FirmInTheFaith/john10.htm
John 10:26-29
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
This passage is often used to teach the doctrine of "once saved - always saved". To clarify what is meant by this, let us first observe the following points about God's plan of salvation.
1. God, as the creator of mankind has all authority to establish the guidelines to which man is expected to conform. (Psalm 119:9)
2. Failure to conform to those guidelines separates man from God, resulting in spiritual death. The end result of this death is eternal condemnation in hell. (this is what man needs to be "saved" from). (Rom. 6:23)
3. Man cannot resolve this separation of his own accord. (John 14:6)
4. God because of his great love for man, sent Jesus to make it possible for man to be reconciled to God. (John 3:16)
5. This reconciliation required the blood of Christ on the cross. (1 Pet 1:18-19)
6. Man's salvation while made possible by the blood of Christ is not unconditional. It requires certain conditions to be met. (Acts 2:38, Rom 10:10; Rev 2:7)
7. Meeting those conditions causes all of the sins we have ever committed to be washed in the blood of Christ. At this point, we have been "saved" because our sins, which separated us from God have been taken out of the way. (1 John 1:7)
8. After this point, it is possible to abandon the faith, return to a life of sin. (2 Pet 2:20-21)
9. If we do so, we are again separated from God, and fall from God's grace. A person in this state is again separated from God and is spiritually dead. (Rev 3:1)
10. The person who sins after being saved can be forgiven by God if he will repent of those sins and ask for forgiveness. (Acts 8:22)
11. In the day of judgment, our fate is sealed and all men will either receive an eternal home with God in heaven or condemnation in hell. At this point, we cannot do anything to change our destiny. (Matt 25:41-46). Once we are dead, our fate is sealed (Lk 16:26)
Most people will agree with these statements up to point #7 (although some may dispute the conditions in #6). Some who believe the doctrine of "once saved always saved" will disagree with point #8, others will agree there, but disagree with #9. That is, some claim that those who are truly saved cannot sin. Others believe that they can sin, but that those sins can never cause the person to be lost. The points below will hold true regardless of which position you take. You will notice from point 11 that I do believe that there is a time when the Christian enters the eternal rest and at that point we can never be lost.
The passage stated above in John 10, is often used to make two arguments by those who believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved. Nearly all of the scriptures used to support this belief make one of these same two arguments.
Argument #1: Those who are saved will never die.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and the follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish;"
The interpretation placed on this passage by those who teach the doctrine of once saved always saved is that since Christ's sheep will never perish, that it is impossible for someone who has become a Christian to fall away and be lost. However, if you read this verse carefully and consider it in the context of the New Testament, you will see that this interpretation is inconsistent with what the rest of the scriptures teach.
This passage simply says that those who follow Christ receive eternal life. Eternal life is the end result of a lifetime of following after Christ (Rev 2:10; 25-26), not something that is awarded the moment one begins to follow him. There is nothing here about the impossibility of ceasing to follow Christ. That concept must be inferred from the passage, and there is nothing to suggest that inference. In fact, if we apply the same logic to John 3:36, we could also say that it is impossible for anyone who is an unbeliever to ever be saved: "… he who does not believe the Son shall not see life…". We all understand that this statement will cease to apply to the unbeliever who becomes a believer. Let us then understand that the promise of eternal life does not apply to the follower, who ceases to be a follower.
Notice the following:
The destiny of eternal life or destruction is assigned in the day of judgement. Matt 25:31-46,
One must endure to the end to receive the crown of life. (Rev 2:10)
In this passage, following is a pre-requisite, to inheriting eternal life. The scriptures clearly teach that we can cease to follow Christ. (Rev. 2:5, Rev 3:2-3; Rev. 3:15-16, Gal 1:6)
It follows, then, that the one who does not endure and ceases to follow Christ will not enjoy the blessing of eternal life. (1 Cor. 9:27, Heb 3:12)
Argument #2: Nothing can separate one who is saved from God.
"and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"
This statement and several others like it in the scriptures are used to teach that God's hold on the saved is so firm that there is nothing they can do to be lost. Again, if you look closely, you can see that this is drawing inferences where none is intended. This says that no one can snatch them from Christ's hand. This is a very comforting statement that assures us that no outside force and come in and steal us away from Christ against his will. He has the power to protect us. It says nothing about our ability or inability to voluntarily give up this protection and leave Christ.
The word translated "snatch" (or pluck) is the Greek word harpozo, which means to seize or take by force. This same word is used in Matt 12:29
"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man and then he will plunder his house.
Here we see the picture of a strong man who is robbed because someone is able to bind him so that he can no longer defend his house. Christ is not like that. He cannot be bound by Satan so that we can be dragged off. The statement Christ made is about his ability to protect us if we accept that protection. We are promised that Satan cannot tempt us beyond our ability to endure it (1 Cor 10:13). However, it is our responsibility to make the right choice. The statement does not preclude us from refusing this protection and voluntarily leaving him.
In fact the scriptures teach:
Jews who returned to the old law had fallen from grace. (Gal 5:1-4) To these people, Christ was no longer any benefit and had been severed from Christ.
Paul recognized that he could become a castway or disqualified from receiving the prize (1 Cor 9:27). He then warned the Corinthians to "take heed" so they would not fall as well (1 Cor 10:12).
Those who have once tasted the heavenly gift can fall away (Heb 6:4-6)
Those who have escaped sin can return to it (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Christians whose life is unacceptable to God can become dead and need to repent or they become unworthy to walk with Christ. (Rev 3:1-4). Also, notice in v. 5 that names can be erased from the book of life.
If we don't hold fast to what we have, our crown can be taken (Rev. 3:11).
Christians can become so distasteful to Christ as to be "spewn out" (Rev. 3:16).
One who is saved can become under bondage to sin (Acts 8: 13-24) and in need of forgiveness.
Do any of these statements mean that we cannot be secure in our salvation? Of course not! The price of salvation has been paid by Christ and the terms by which we accept that gift are clearly given to us in the scriptures. We can rest assured that if we remain faithful to Christ, that we can receive the crown of life and that no one can take that promise from us if we are not willing to give it up! Heb 6:19.
I need to summarize my position on this topic. Here's a good site that clarifies the issue.
http://members.tripod.com/~FirmInTheFaith/john10.htm
John 10:26-29
"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
This passage is often used to teach the doctrine of "once saved - always saved". To clarify what is meant by this, let us first observe the following points about God's plan of salvation.
1. God, as the creator of mankind has all authority to establish the guidelines to which man is expected to conform. (Psalm 119:9)
2. Failure to conform to those guidelines separates man from God, resulting in spiritual death. The end result of this death is eternal condemnation in hell. (this is what man needs to be "saved" from). (Rom. 6:23)
3. Man cannot resolve this separation of his own accord. (John 14:6)
4. God because of his great love for man, sent Jesus to make it possible for man to be reconciled to God. (John 3:16)
5. This reconciliation required the blood of Christ on the cross. (1 Pet 1:18-19)
6. Man's salvation while made possible by the blood of Christ is not unconditional. It requires certain conditions to be met. (Acts 2:38, Rom 10:10; Rev 2:7)
7. Meeting those conditions causes all of the sins we have ever committed to be washed in the blood of Christ. At this point, we have been "saved" because our sins, which separated us from God have been taken out of the way. (1 John 1:7)
8. After this point, it is possible to abandon the faith, return to a life of sin. (2 Pet 2:20-21)
9. If we do so, we are again separated from God, and fall from God's grace. A person in this state is again separated from God and is spiritually dead. (Rev 3:1)
10. The person who sins after being saved can be forgiven by God if he will repent of those sins and ask for forgiveness. (Acts 8:22)
11. In the day of judgment, our fate is sealed and all men will either receive an eternal home with God in heaven or condemnation in hell. At this point, we cannot do anything to change our destiny. (Matt 25:41-46). Once we are dead, our fate is sealed (Lk 16:26)
Most people will agree with these statements up to point #7 (although some may dispute the conditions in #6). Some who believe the doctrine of "once saved always saved" will disagree with point #8, others will agree there, but disagree with #9. That is, some claim that those who are truly saved cannot sin. Others believe that they can sin, but that those sins can never cause the person to be lost. The points below will hold true regardless of which position you take. You will notice from point 11 that I do believe that there is a time when the Christian enters the eternal rest and at that point we can never be lost.
The passage stated above in John 10, is often used to make two arguments by those who believe in the doctrine of once saved always saved. Nearly all of the scriptures used to support this belief make one of these same two arguments.
Argument #1: Those who are saved will never die.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and the follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish;"
The interpretation placed on this passage by those who teach the doctrine of once saved always saved is that since Christ's sheep will never perish, that it is impossible for someone who has become a Christian to fall away and be lost. However, if you read this verse carefully and consider it in the context of the New Testament, you will see that this interpretation is inconsistent with what the rest of the scriptures teach.
This passage simply says that those who follow Christ receive eternal life. Eternal life is the end result of a lifetime of following after Christ (Rev 2:10; 25-26), not something that is awarded the moment one begins to follow him. There is nothing here about the impossibility of ceasing to follow Christ. That concept must be inferred from the passage, and there is nothing to suggest that inference. In fact, if we apply the same logic to John 3:36, we could also say that it is impossible for anyone who is an unbeliever to ever be saved: "… he who does not believe the Son shall not see life…". We all understand that this statement will cease to apply to the unbeliever who becomes a believer. Let us then understand that the promise of eternal life does not apply to the follower, who ceases to be a follower.
Notice the following:
The destiny of eternal life or destruction is assigned in the day of judgement. Matt 25:31-46,
One must endure to the end to receive the crown of life. (Rev 2:10)
In this passage, following is a pre-requisite, to inheriting eternal life. The scriptures clearly teach that we can cease to follow Christ. (Rev. 2:5, Rev 3:2-3; Rev. 3:15-16, Gal 1:6)
It follows, then, that the one who does not endure and ceases to follow Christ will not enjoy the blessing of eternal life. (1 Cor. 9:27, Heb 3:12)
Argument #2: Nothing can separate one who is saved from God.
"and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"
This statement and several others like it in the scriptures are used to teach that God's hold on the saved is so firm that there is nothing they can do to be lost. Again, if you look closely, you can see that this is drawing inferences where none is intended. This says that no one can snatch them from Christ's hand. This is a very comforting statement that assures us that no outside force and come in and steal us away from Christ against his will. He has the power to protect us. It says nothing about our ability or inability to voluntarily give up this protection and leave Christ.
The word translated "snatch" (or pluck) is the Greek word harpozo, which means to seize or take by force. This same word is used in Matt 12:29
"Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man and then he will plunder his house.
Here we see the picture of a strong man who is robbed because someone is able to bind him so that he can no longer defend his house. Christ is not like that. He cannot be bound by Satan so that we can be dragged off. The statement Christ made is about his ability to protect us if we accept that protection. We are promised that Satan cannot tempt us beyond our ability to endure it (1 Cor 10:13). However, it is our responsibility to make the right choice. The statement does not preclude us from refusing this protection and voluntarily leaving him.
In fact the scriptures teach:
Jews who returned to the old law had fallen from grace. (Gal 5:1-4) To these people, Christ was no longer any benefit and had been severed from Christ.
Paul recognized that he could become a castway or disqualified from receiving the prize (1 Cor 9:27). He then warned the Corinthians to "take heed" so they would not fall as well (1 Cor 10:12).
Those who have once tasted the heavenly gift can fall away (Heb 6:4-6)
Those who have escaped sin can return to it (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Christians whose life is unacceptable to God can become dead and need to repent or they become unworthy to walk with Christ. (Rev 3:1-4). Also, notice in v. 5 that names can be erased from the book of life.
If we don't hold fast to what we have, our crown can be taken (Rev. 3:11).
Christians can become so distasteful to Christ as to be "spewn out" (Rev. 3:16).
One who is saved can become under bondage to sin (Acts 8: 13-24) and in need of forgiveness.
Do any of these statements mean that we cannot be secure in our salvation? Of course not! The price of salvation has been paid by Christ and the terms by which we accept that gift are clearly given to us in the scriptures. We can rest assured that if we remain faithful to Christ, that we can receive the crown of life and that no one can take that promise from us if we are not willing to give it up! Heb 6:19.
Friday, September 19, 2003
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In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had people tell me, but Paul.. but the Devil can take you out of God’s Hands.
Oh, he could? You think that?
And you’re still in God’s Hands?
Well, why hasn’t Satan taken you out, if he could?
Don’t you know that if he could, he would?
And if Satan hasn’t, then hasn’t he been nice to you.
And now you’re going to Heaven by the goodness of the Devil.
Isn’t that a strange doctrine?
I mean think about it. NO HE CAN’T DO IT!
That’s why he hasn’t done it. He can’t do it.
Bette, did you read my post here? http://forums.christianity.com//?post=672011#672011
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Earthless, I think ariana answered your questions already, so I will re-post it.
ariana - Re: Reasons why you CAN loose your salvation - Sep 17, 2003, 3:23 AM - (49 of 75) - reference
"Yes I agree, salvation is a gift from God. If you gave me a gift, though, could I not give it back? NOOOO, no one can "snatch" us out of the Lord's hands. How can I be stolen away from him, however, if I leave on my own "God given" free will? Could it be that those who claimed they were saved and then fell away NEVER REALLY WERE WASHED IN HIS BLOOD? Maybe, but that kind of assumption/judgement is something my Bible warns I should not make. Who am I to say that a person who said that prayer, done so good in the Lord's service for a while, and then turned away had been lost all along? I would NEVER want to make that assumption/judgement. "
Earthless, you seem to be making some assumptions. One, that man has no free will. This is a resurrection of the heresy of Pelagianism. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529 AD)[296] and at the Council of Trent (1546 AD).[297]
Second, you seem to assume that when Jesus said "It is finished", that he meant the work of Christ was totally finished on Calvary and we can't add anything to it. This is our cooperation with grace. Some say we have no free will to do this, but that is not true. Our free will helps us turn from sin and follow Christ. We can't earn heaven, but we can earn hell. It is our free will that decides where we end up.
Third, you seem to assume that salvation is instantaneous, not a life long process. When was Abraham justified? When he left UR, when God promised him a son, or when he obeyed God to sacrifice Isaac? In all three places, Genesis says Abraham was justified. Assuming that salvation is instantaneous leads to pitting the initial method of receiving the gift of faith with the methods of on-going reception of grace. If your assumption were that salvation is a process, there would not be a conflict. In Catholic teaching, on the other hand, the work of justification is not limited to the act of faith with which it begins. It is carried on by the use of the sacraments, the life of charity and the practice of good works, so that human nature recovers the spiritual life that was lost by sin and man becomes a new creature.
Fourth, you seem to assume that we don't need to repent for serious sin (2 Corinthians 12:21) after baptism. How can we repent of sins we have not yet commited? Yes, Jesus did what was necessary for all human's sins for all time to be forgiven, but not unless we continue to repent for the sins we commit after baptism. Jesus did his part. We have to do our part by letting his mercy and forgiveness be applied to us. He stands at the door and knocks, but we have to open the door. Sometimes we shut the door through serious sin. (Warning: mixed metaphor ahead) Sometimes we become lost sheep, but our Good Shepherd will bring us back to the flock if we don't fight him. Revelation 21:27 says,"but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." This is not qualified by saying these offenses after baptism are overlooked. We have to continue to repent for sin or we won't receive the gift of eternal life. Rom 2:7-13 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Paul later explains in v. 25 that he is talking about circumcision when he is talking about the law, not the 10 commandments. Remember, Paul is writing this letter to people who already believe in Jesus. He is not talking about initial salvation.
Fifth, you seem to assume that salvation and sanctification are separate and that sanctification is optional. I think it is better to assume they are not separate and that growing in holiness is mandatory. (e.g., Mt 5:20, 48; 7:20-24; Rom 2:7-13; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Pet 1:2). Protestantism's teaching of extrinsic, imputed, forensic, or external justification contradicts the Christian Tradition and biblical doctrine of infused, actual, internal, transformational justification (which inc. sanctification): Ps 51:2-10; 103:12; Jn 1:29; Rom 5:19; 2 Cor 5:17; Heb 1:3; Heb 6; 1 Jn 1:7-9. Sin makes us lose the grace that sanctifies us, but does not make us lose the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit continuously calls us back even when we are deep in sin and helps us resist temptation. We don't lose the salvation we had at baptism, but we lose the post-baptismal salvation/sanctification. Since sanctification is not optional, one ends up in a state that is worse than pre-baptism (2 Peter 2:20).
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have had people tell me, but Paul.. but the Devil can take you out of God’s Hands.
Oh, he could? You think that?
And you’re still in God’s Hands?
Well, why hasn’t Satan taken you out, if he could?
Don’t you know that if he could, he would?
And if Satan hasn’t, then hasn’t he been nice to you.
And now you’re going to Heaven by the goodness of the Devil.
Isn’t that a strange doctrine?
I mean think about it. NO HE CAN’T DO IT!
That’s why he hasn’t done it. He can’t do it.
Bette, did you read my post here? http://forums.christianity.com//?post=672011#672011
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earthless, I think ariana answered your questions already, so I will re-post it.
ariana - Re: Reasons why you CAN loose your salvation - Sep 17, 2003, 3:23 AM - (49 of 75) - reference
"Yes I agree, salvation is a gift from God. If you gave me a gift, though, could I not give it back? NOOOO, no one can "snatch" us out of the Lord's hands. How can I be stolen away from him, however, if I leave on my own "God given" free will? Could it be that those who claimed they were saved and then fell away NEVER REALLY WERE WASHED IN HIS BLOOD? Maybe, but that kind of assumption/judgement is something my Bible warns I should not make. Who am I to say that a person who said that prayer, done so good in the Lord's service for a while, and then turned away had been lost all along? I would NEVER want to make that assumption/judgement. "
Earthless, you seem to be making some assumptions. One, that man has no free will. This is a resurrection of the heresy of Pelagianism. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529 AD)[296] and at the Council of Trent (1546 AD).[297]
Second, you seem to assume that when Jesus said "It is finished", that he meant the work of Christ was totally finished on Calvary and we can't add anything to it. This is our cooperation with grace. Some say we have no free will to do this, but that is not true. Our free will helps us turn from sin and follow Christ. We can't earn heaven, but we can earn hell. It is our free will that decides where we end up.
Third, you seem to assume that salvation is instantaneous, not a life long process. When was Abraham justified? When he left UR, when God promised him a son, or when he obeyed God to sacrifice Isaac? In all three places, Genesis says Abraham was justified. Assuming that salvation is instantaneous leads to pitting the initial method of receiving the gift of faith with the methods of on-going reception of grace. If your assumption were that salvation is a process, there would not be a conflict. In Catholic teaching, on the other hand, the work of justification is not limited to the act of faith with which it begins. It is carried on by the use of the sacraments, the life of charity and the practice of good works, so that human nature recovers the spiritual life that was lost by sin and man becomes a new creature.
Fourth, you seem to assume that we don't need to repent for serious sin (2 Corinthians 12:21) after baptism. How can we repent of sins we have not yet commited? Yes, Jesus did what was necessary for all human's sins for all time to be forgiven, but not unless we continue to repent for the sins we commit after baptism. Jesus did his part. We have to do our part by letting his mercy and forgiveness be applied to us. He stands at the door and knocks, but we have to open the door. Sometimes we shut the door through serious sin. (Warning: mixed metaphor ahead) Sometimes we become lost sheep, but our Good Shepherd will bring us back to the flock if we don't fight him. Revelation 21:27 says,"but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." This is not qualified by saying these offenses after baptism are overlooked. We have to continue to repent for sin or we won't receive the gift of eternal life. Rom 2:7-13 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism. 12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Paul later explains in v. 25 that he is talking about circumcision when he is talking about the law, not the 10 commandments. Remember, Paul is writing this letter to people who already believe in Jesus. He is not talking about initial salvation.
Fifth, you seem to assume that salvation and sanctification are separate and that sanctification is optional. I think it is better to assume they are not separate and that growing in holiness is mandatory. (e.g., Mt 5:20, 48; 7:20-24; Rom 2:7-13; 1 Cor 6:11; 1 Pet 1:2). Protestantism's teaching of extrinsic, imputed, forensic, or external justification contradicts the Christian Tradition and biblical doctrine of infused, actual, internal, transformational justification (which inc. sanctification): Ps 51:2-10; 103:12; Jn 1:29; Rom 5:19; 2 Cor 5:17; Heb 1:3; Heb 6; 1 Jn 1:7-9. Sin makes us lose the grace that sanctifies us, but does not make us lose the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit continuously calls us back even when we are deep in sin and helps us resist temptation. We don't lose the salvation we had at baptism, but we lose the post-baptismal salvation/sanctification. Since sanctification is not optional, one ends up in a state that is worse than pre-baptism (2 Peter 2:20).
Wednesday, September 17, 2003
In Reply To:
-------Quote----
However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the book of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.
------- End Quote----
Jesus will not leave us and no one can take him away from us. However, we have free will that lets us go away from Him. The Bible makes this very clear.
Proverbs 21:7 The oppression of the wicked will sweep them away, because they refuse to do what is right. 8 The way of the culprit is crooked, but the conduct of the innocent is right.
Jer.2:28 But where are your gods that you made for yourself? Let them arise, if they can save you, in your time of trouble; for as many as your cities are your gods, O Judah. [29] "Why do you complain against me? You have all rebelled against me, says the LORD. [30] In vain have I smitten your children, they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion. [31] And you, O generation, heed the word of the LORD. Have I been a wilderness to Israel, or a land of thick darkness? Why then do my people say, `We are FREE, we will come no more to thee'? [32] Can a maiden forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
The opposite of free will is free stuborness or hardness of heart. For example---
Mark, chapter 7:[15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him."
Mark, chapter 10:5: But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark, chapter 16:14: Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Matthew, chapter 19:8: He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt.15:18-20 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."
Ephesians, chapter 4:18: they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;
Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors. 52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.
-------Quote----
This does not mean that the true believer has a free ride, a license to sin. A true believer strives to follow Jesus; but being human they will sometimes stumble. Any true believer will tell you, that having been sealed with the Holy Spirit, they cannot remain in a prolonged sinful lifestyle; because, the Spirit will not allow them peace until they abandon that lifestyle.
Additionally, God's outpouring of love to His children does not allow the true believer to be comfortable with prolonged sin.
------- End Quote----
Do you have any scientific evidence to prove this? Based on my experience, I whole-heartedly disagree. Why, in the Our Father, do we pray to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? If this is impossible to be tempted, why pray for it? Even Jesus was tempted after the Holy Spirit descended on him. Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
2 Peter 2:18-21 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
The idea of Once Saved, Always Saved and the lack of free will is not what original Christianity taught. The Catholic Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against the heresy of Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529 AD) and at the Council of Trent (1546 AD).
------- Quote----
Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start.
------- End Quote----
That doesn't sound like one can ever be sure one is really saved. It seems when one commits sin, one would start to doubt their salvation, so therefore one would want to get "saved" every week. Eventually, one would start thinking they are unable to make a commitment to Christ at all because they think they really meant it the last time, so why try again? What they need is repentance, confession and mercy, not to be "saved" again. This would make the Bible make more sense because it would explain how we can believe in Jesus, yet fall into sin. The story of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15) is more what salvation is all about.
------- Quote----
Salvation is a gift given by God, which is in accordance with scriptural teaching. Now, those that say salvation can be lost will, for the most part, also say that salvation is a gift.
However, in practicality, they are actually denying that salvation is a gift. Why do I say that? Because a gift is not something, which you must earn or pay for to keep!
If I give you something and it is truly a gift, I will not ask you to work for it in exchange or to keep doing something to make sure I don’t take it away. We need to align with Scripture and remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life.
------- End Quote----
I agree salvation is a gift given by God. By obeying the commandments, I am not earning heaven. I'm avoiding hell. The Prodigal Son claimed his inheritance, but in offending the father, lost the joy of belonging to his family. He would have remained in that state if he had not repented. We can be disinherited too through serious sin. By obeying the commandments, I am acting like one who belongs to God's family. Only my free will decision will get me disinherited. God will not break his covenant with me, but I can break my covenant with him. I can't do this on my own. I need God's grace. John
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing."
Why would Jesus say, "Remain in me" if that is not a free choice or an impossibility of leaving? By the rest of your post ("whatever happens will happen"), you seem to be supporting double predistination -- the idea that God makes some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. My God would not be so mean that he would damn someone before they were born. We are all create to know love and serve God and be with him in heaven. Some of us will turn away through our own choice. I can agree we are predestined to heaven, but not to hell.
-------Quote----
However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the book of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.
------- End Quote----
Jesus will not leave us and no one can take him away from us. However, we have free will that lets us go away from Him. The Bible makes this very clear.
Proverbs 21:7 The oppression of the wicked will sweep them away, because they refuse to do what is right. 8 The way of the culprit is crooked, but the conduct of the innocent is right.
Jer.2:28 But where are your gods that you made for yourself? Let them arise, if they can save you, in your time of trouble; for as many as your cities are your gods, O Judah. [29] "Why do you complain against me? You have all rebelled against me, says the LORD. [30] In vain have I smitten your children, they took no correction; your own sword devoured your prophets like a ravening lion. [31] And you, O generation, heed the word of the LORD. Have I been a wilderness to Israel, or a land of thick darkness? Why then do my people say, `We are FREE, we will come no more to thee'? [32] Can a maiden forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? Yet my people have forgotten me days without number.
The opposite of free will is free stuborness or hardness of heart. For example---
Mark, chapter 7:[15 there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him."
Mark, chapter 10:5: But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment.
Mark, chapter 16:14: Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they sat at table; and he upbraided them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
Matthew, chapter 19:8: He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt.15:18-20 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."
Ephesians, chapter 4:18: they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;
Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always oppose the holy Spirit; you are just like your ancestors. 52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They put to death those who foretold the coming of the righteous one, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.
-------Quote----
This does not mean that the true believer has a free ride, a license to sin. A true believer strives to follow Jesus; but being human they will sometimes stumble. Any true believer will tell you, that having been sealed with the Holy Spirit, they cannot remain in a prolonged sinful lifestyle; because, the Spirit will not allow them peace until they abandon that lifestyle.
Additionally, God's outpouring of love to His children does not allow the true believer to be comfortable with prolonged sin.
------- End Quote----
Do you have any scientific evidence to prove this? Based on my experience, I whole-heartedly disagree. Why, in the Our Father, do we pray to "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"? If this is impossible to be tempted, why pray for it? Even Jesus was tempted after the Holy Spirit descended on him. Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
2 Peter 2:18-21 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Hebrews 3:12-14 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
The idea of Once Saved, Always Saved and the lack of free will is not what original Christianity taught. The Catholic Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against the heresy of Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529 AD) and at the Council of Trent (1546 AD).
------- Quote----
Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start.
------- End Quote----
That doesn't sound like one can ever be sure one is really saved. It seems when one commits sin, one would start to doubt their salvation, so therefore one would want to get "saved" every week. Eventually, one would start thinking they are unable to make a commitment to Christ at all because they think they really meant it the last time, so why try again? What they need is repentance, confession and mercy, not to be "saved" again. This would make the Bible make more sense because it would explain how we can believe in Jesus, yet fall into sin. The story of the Prodigal Son (Lk 15) is more what salvation is all about.
------- Quote----
Salvation is a gift given by God, which is in accordance with scriptural teaching. Now, those that say salvation can be lost will, for the most part, also say that salvation is a gift.
However, in practicality, they are actually denying that salvation is a gift. Why do I say that? Because a gift is not something, which you must earn or pay for to keep!
If I give you something and it is truly a gift, I will not ask you to work for it in exchange or to keep doing something to make sure I don’t take it away. We need to align with Scripture and remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life.
------- End Quote----
I agree salvation is a gift given by God. By obeying the commandments, I am not earning heaven. I'm avoiding hell. The Prodigal Son claimed his inheritance, but in offending the father, lost the joy of belonging to his family. He would have remained in that state if he had not repented. We can be disinherited too through serious sin. By obeying the commandments, I am acting like one who belongs to God's family. Only my free will decision will get me disinherited. God will not break his covenant with me, but I can break my covenant with him. I can't do this on my own. I need God's grace. John
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. 2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes 3 so that it bears more fruit. 3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. 4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing."
Why would Jesus say, "Remain in me" if that is not a free choice or an impossibility of leaving? By the rest of your post ("whatever happens will happen"), you seem to be supporting double predistination -- the idea that God makes some people to go to heaven and others to go to hell. My God would not be so mean that he would damn someone before they were born. We are all create to know love and serve God and be with him in heaven. Some of us will turn away through our own choice. I can agree we are predestined to heaven, but not to hell.
Monday, September 15, 2003
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In Reply To
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i agree that faith alone saves...logic tells us that one who accepts Christ as thier Lord and Savior is going to ask God for forgiveness naturally...so faith alone is all that is needed from us...asking for forgiveness will happen as a result of faith
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If I say I'm a Christian, but sacrifice my children to pagan gods, can I can't call myself a Christian? No. I have to act like what I have committed myself to being. I have to practice what I preach. I have to take up my cross and follow Jesus (Mt 16:24). Doing this is not optional, but it is not what earns heaven for me. Eternal life is a free gift. Otherwise, I am just saying "Lord, Lord". I don't have to obey the "works of the law" like circumcision or abstain from pork, which is what Paul meant by "works of the law." I can't earn heaven, but I can earn hell, which is where I would go if I refuse to obey the 10 commandments.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Repentance and baptism are also required.
Acts 2:36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
In Reply To
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i agree that faith alone saves...logic tells us that one who accepts Christ as thier Lord and Savior is going to ask God for forgiveness naturally...so faith alone is all that is needed from us...asking for forgiveness will happen as a result of faith
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If I say I'm a Christian, but sacrifice my children to pagan gods, can I can't call myself a Christian? No. I have to act like what I have committed myself to being. I have to practice what I preach. I have to take up my cross and follow Jesus (Mt 16:24). Doing this is not optional, but it is not what earns heaven for me. Eternal life is a free gift. Otherwise, I am just saying "Lord, Lord". I don't have to obey the "works of the law" like circumcision or abstain from pork, which is what Paul meant by "works of the law." I can't earn heaven, but I can earn hell, which is where I would go if I refuse to obey the 10 commandments.
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Repentance and baptism are also required.
Acts 2:36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Tuesday, September 09, 2003
From the forum at Christianity.com:
------Quote------------
There is a difference between the true believer, that person who has been born-again. And the individual that professes to be a Christian with his lips, but is not in reality.
For those that are true believers, the Holy Spirit is the enabler and convicter bringing them unto good works. Good works is a natural result of ones loving personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Good works are not a means to keep or sustain the grace gift of salvation that Jesus completed.
--------End Quote------------------------------------------------------------------------
If good works are a natural result, why does Scripture tell us to endure? If they were as natural as breathing, why would we need to be told to do it? Here are just a few of many verses that tell us to endure.
Heb.10
[36] For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.
2 Timothy 2:3
You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 4:5
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Luke.21
[19] By your endurance you will gain your lives.
Rev.14
[12] Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
------Quote------------
There is a difference between the true believer, that person who has been born-again. And the individual that professes to be a Christian with his lips, but is not in reality.
For those that are true believers, the Holy Spirit is the enabler and convicter bringing them unto good works. Good works is a natural result of ones loving personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Good works are not a means to keep or sustain the grace gift of salvation that Jesus completed.
--------End Quote------------------------------------------------------------------------
If good works are a natural result, why does Scripture tell us to endure? If they were as natural as breathing, why would we need to be told to do it? Here are just a few of many verses that tell us to endure.
Heb.10
[36] For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.
2 Timothy 2:3
You therefore must endure hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 4:5
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Luke.21
[19] By your endurance you will gain your lives.
Rev.14
[12] Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Friday, September 05, 2003
From the forum at Christianity.com:
To Bond:
----------Quote---------
Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16). In fact, the apostle Paul goes as far as saying that “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (verse 21). If we could obtain righteousness by such things as obeying the commandment and doing charity, there would have been no need for Christ dying on the cross.
----------End Quote---------
Whne Paul talks about works of the law, he was talking about obeying the Levitical law such as circumcision (Romans 2:25-29, 3:1) and dietary laws (Romans 14), not moral laws. In the next verse, Galatians 2:17, says "But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!"
In Romans 2:5-8, Paul condemns the Judiazers who think they will be saved by the Levitical law. He says, "By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Romans 1:5 Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, 6 among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;" Obedience to what? The moral law. Romans 13:8 says, "Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."
----------Quote---------
There are also historical errors in the apocrypha. For example, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.). These two events were separated by over 200 years and yet the total lifespan of Tobit was 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7) when in fact he was the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:1).
Surely the doctrinal and historical errors in the apocrypha are evidence against the divine inspiration of these books.
----------End Quote---------
There are "errors" in the deuterocanonical books. The book of Judith, for example, gets several points of history and geography wrong. Similarly Judith, that glorious daughter of Israel, lies her head off (well, actually, it's wicked King Holofernes' head that comes off). And the Angel Raphael appears under a false name to Tobit. How can Catholics explain that such "divinely inspired" books would endorse lying and get their facts wrong? The same way we deal with other incidents in Scripture where similar incidents of lying or "errors" happen.
When the Gospels say the women came to the tomb at sunrise, there is no scientific error here. This is not the assertion of the Ptolemiac theory that the sun revolves around the earth. These and other examples which could be given are not "errors" because they're not truth claims about astronomy or historical events.
Similarly, both Judith and Tobit have a number of historical and geographical errors, not because they're presenting bad history and erroneous geography, but because they're first-rate pious stories that don't pretend to be remotely interested with teaching history or geography, any more than the Resurrection narratives in the Gospels are interested in astronomy. Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin." Just as one wouldn't wave a medieval history textbook around and complain about a tale that begins "once upon a time when King Arthur ruled the land," so Catholics are not reading Tobit and Judith to get a history lesson.
----------Quote---------
Wisdom 8:19,20 is another contradiction between the apocrypha and Scripture. “For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” However, the Bible teaches that all are born with original sin. “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). The author of Wisdom believes he is an exception.
Sirach 12:4-7 advices, “Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner.” This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, “I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again” (Luke 6:27,30) “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink” (Romans 12:20).
----------End Quote---------
Jews who touched dead people were called defiled. Perhaps Wisdom 8:19,20 is talking about that kind of defilement, not original sin.
If this makes it unscriptural, why is Wisdom quoted in the New Testament?
Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, "For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God'" (cf. Matthew 27:42-43)
----------Quote---------
Sirach 12:4-7 advices, "Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner." This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, "I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (Luke 6:27,30) "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink" (Romans 12:20).
----------End Quote---------
Jesus came to reveal the law of love of neighbor. In the Old Testament, that wasn't clear yet.
To eirene:
----------Quote------------------------
I want to point out that what you have brought up is an issue of doctrine, and since your doctrines make no room for the those types of statements found in the Deuterocanonicals, then, as such, your belief system makes no room for those books to be considered as scripture . ..
----------End Quote---------
I agree. One should form doctrine from the scripture and tradition, not edit Scripture to fit preconceived doctrine.
To Bond:
----------Quote---------
Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.) which is directly refuted by the Bible: “A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16). In fact, the apostle Paul goes as far as saying that “if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (verse 21). If we could obtain righteousness by such things as obeying the commandment and doing charity, there would have been no need for Christ dying on the cross.
----------End Quote---------
Whne Paul talks about works of the law, he was talking about obeying the Levitical law such as circumcision (Romans 2:25-29, 3:1) and dietary laws (Romans 14), not moral laws. In the next verse, Galatians 2:17, says "But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!"
In Romans 2:5-8, Paul condemns the Judiazers who think they will be saved by the Levitical law. He says, "By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, 6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness." Romans 1:5 Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles, 6 among whom are you also, who are called to belong to Jesus Christ;" Obedience to what? The moral law. Romans 13:8 says, "Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."
----------Quote---------
There are also historical errors in the apocrypha. For example, Tobit claims to have been alive when Jeroboam revolted (931 B.C.) and when Assyria conquered Israel (722 B.C.). These two events were separated by over 200 years and yet the total lifespan of Tobit was 158 years (Tobit 1:3-5; 14:11)! Judith mistakenly identifies Nebuchadnezzar as king of the Assyrians (1:1, 7) when in fact he was the king of Babylon (2 Kings 24:1).
Surely the doctrinal and historical errors in the apocrypha are evidence against the divine inspiration of these books.
----------End Quote---------
There are "errors" in the deuterocanonical books. The book of Judith, for example, gets several points of history and geography wrong. Similarly Judith, that glorious daughter of Israel, lies her head off (well, actually, it's wicked King Holofernes' head that comes off). And the Angel Raphael appears under a false name to Tobit. How can Catholics explain that such "divinely inspired" books would endorse lying and get their facts wrong? The same way we deal with other incidents in Scripture where similar incidents of lying or "errors" happen.
When the Gospels say the women came to the tomb at sunrise, there is no scientific error here. This is not the assertion of the Ptolemiac theory that the sun revolves around the earth. These and other examples which could be given are not "errors" because they're not truth claims about astronomy or historical events.
Similarly, both Judith and Tobit have a number of historical and geographical errors, not because they're presenting bad history and erroneous geography, but because they're first-rate pious stories that don't pretend to be remotely interested with teaching history or geography, any more than the Resurrection narratives in the Gospels are interested in astronomy. Indeed, the author of Tobit goes out of his way to make clear that his hero is fictional. He makes Tobit the uncle of Ahiqar, a figure in ancient Semitic folklore like "Jack the Giant Killer" or "Aladdin." Just as one wouldn't wave a medieval history textbook around and complain about a tale that begins "once upon a time when King Arthur ruled the land," so Catholics are not reading Tobit and Judith to get a history lesson.
----------Quote---------
Wisdom 8:19,20 is another contradiction between the apocrypha and Scripture. “For I was a witty child, and had a good spirit. Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled.” However, the Bible teaches that all are born with original sin. “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). The author of Wisdom believes he is an exception.
Sirach 12:4-7 advices, “Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner.” This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, “I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again” (Luke 6:27,30) “Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink” (Romans 12:20).
----------End Quote---------
Jews who touched dead people were called defiled. Perhaps Wisdom 8:19,20 is talking about that kind of defilement, not original sin.
If this makes it unscriptural, why is Wisdom quoted in the New Testament?
Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, "For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him."
This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God'" (cf. Matthew 27:42-43)
----------Quote---------
Sirach 12:4-7 advices, "Give to the godly man, and help not a sinner. Do well unto him that is lowly, but give not to the ungodly; hold back thy bread, and give it not unto him...give unto the good, and help not the sinner." This sound more like pagan philosophy rather than the teaching of God, "I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you...Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again" (Luke 6:27,30) "Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink" (Romans 12:20).
----------End Quote---------
Jesus came to reveal the law of love of neighbor. In the Old Testament, that wasn't clear yet.
To eirene:
----------Quote------------------------
I want to point out that what you have brought up is an issue of doctrine, and since your doctrines make no room for the those types of statements found in the Deuterocanonicals, then, as such, your belief system makes no room for those books to be considered as scripture . ..
----------End Quote---------
I agree. One should form doctrine from the scripture and tradition, not edit Scripture to fit preconceived doctrine.
Tuesday, September 02, 2003
I've been away from blogging because I had surgery again 7/31. I'm now back at work and doing fine. Please, Lord, enough already!
I have started being a catechist for those inquiring about the Catholic faith. It is a lot of fun and it's challenging. Our parish has 3 people that are in this phase and will be joining the RCIA this fall. The inquiry sessions are year around, though. Pray for our inquirers and may God send some more to our RCIA.
I have started being a catechist for those inquiring about the Catholic faith. It is a lot of fun and it's challenging. Our parish has 3 people that are in this phase and will be joining the RCIA this fall. The inquiry sessions are year around, though. Pray for our inquirers and may God send some more to our RCIA.
Monday, July 28, 2003
From the Christianity.com forums:
Here are some verses that say celibacy is good:
Mt 19:12; Jesus said, "Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."
1 Cor 7:7-9 ... Paul was unmarried. "Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another. 8 6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire."
1 Cor 7:32-34 says celibacy is good. "I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
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Quote
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I would very much encourage you to look at some of the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine on many issues. If you're scared of leaving the church because it is Christ's 'one and true Church,' (which I was for quite some time,) I would encourage you to research what a church is.
Everything the Roman Catholics do has a good base. I understand why they have the crucifix, why they have the Mary Doctrines, (I can never spell Marianal right for some reason - I'm pretty sure that's wrong.) why they have a Episcopalian church government, but the one thing that I absolutely could not go with was Papal Authority, and Papal Infallibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been getting TOS violations lately for my defense of the RCC, so I'm sending a private reply. I've enjoyed some of your posts too.
I am not afraid of leaving the RCC. I checked out some Protestant churches when I was younger. My friendships with Protestants have enriched my faith as, hopefully, I have for them. I have no desire to leave because I love all the RCC teaches.
As I participate in this forum, I see why Christ left Peter in charge and gave the pope authority. I see wildly different interpretations of Scripture, great disunity, uncharitable debate, slander towards Catholics, and all kinds of false claims that are not supported by history. So many seem adrift and searching for truth and are unable to feel confident that they can find it.
Without authority, there is no certainty that I am being taught what the apostles taught. My faith would be on shaky ground when it comes to doctrines like salvation. I've seen churches that cave into the latest fad doctrines or trends. There seems to be no anchor. We all can quote Scripture, but what does it really mean if no one can agree on the same basic tenents like salvation, the ten commandments, the trinity.....etc?
I love the pope's authority. I love that he can settle disputes to restore unity. I love that the RCC is still teaching what was taught in the first century. I love the way I can read the early writings of Christianity and find no conflicts with current teaching. I love the way the RCC does not change its doctrine, no matter how much pressure our society puts on it.
Jesus founded only one church. All for whom he died are members of his church, whether they are fully united with its teachings or not. To me that means that every person on this planet is part of Christ's church in some way or another. All who will be save will be saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord & savior. God does not send to hell those who are innocently ignorant of his teachings and follow the ten commandments. Those who are not ignorant and disobey - that's another matter.
Your sister in Christ,
BettyG
Here are some verses that say celibacy is good:
Mt 19:12; Jesus said, "Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage 9 for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it."
1 Cor 7:7-9 ... Paul was unmarried. "Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, 5 one of one kind and one of another. 8 6 Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire."
1 Cor 7:32-34 says celibacy is good. "I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33 But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, 34 and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would very much encourage you to look at some of the Roman Catholic Church's doctrine on many issues. If you're scared of leaving the church because it is Christ's 'one and true Church,' (which I was for quite some time,) I would encourage you to research what a church is.
Everything the Roman Catholics do has a good base. I understand why they have the crucifix, why they have the Mary Doctrines, (I can never spell Marianal right for some reason - I'm pretty sure that's wrong.) why they have a Episcopalian church government, but the one thing that I absolutely could not go with was Papal Authority, and Papal Infallibility.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been getting TOS violations lately for my defense of the RCC, so I'm sending a private reply. I've enjoyed some of your posts too.
I am not afraid of leaving the RCC. I checked out some Protestant churches when I was younger. My friendships with Protestants have enriched my faith as, hopefully, I have for them. I have no desire to leave because I love all the RCC teaches.
As I participate in this forum, I see why Christ left Peter in charge and gave the pope authority. I see wildly different interpretations of Scripture, great disunity, uncharitable debate, slander towards Catholics, and all kinds of false claims that are not supported by history. So many seem adrift and searching for truth and are unable to feel confident that they can find it.
Without authority, there is no certainty that I am being taught what the apostles taught. My faith would be on shaky ground when it comes to doctrines like salvation. I've seen churches that cave into the latest fad doctrines or trends. There seems to be no anchor. We all can quote Scripture, but what does it really mean if no one can agree on the same basic tenents like salvation, the ten commandments, the trinity.....etc?
I love the pope's authority. I love that he can settle disputes to restore unity. I love that the RCC is still teaching what was taught in the first century. I love the way I can read the early writings of Christianity and find no conflicts with current teaching. I love the way the RCC does not change its doctrine, no matter how much pressure our society puts on it.
Jesus founded only one church. All for whom he died are members of his church, whether they are fully united with its teachings or not. To me that means that every person on this planet is part of Christ's church in some way or another. All who will be save will be saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus, our Lord & savior. God does not send to hell those who are innocently ignorant of his teachings and follow the ten commandments. Those who are not ignorant and disobey - that's another matter.
Your sister in Christ,
BettyG
Friday, July 25, 2003
Pryor's religion triggers debate
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A judicial confirmation hearing yesterday turned into a rancorous debate between Democrats and Republicans over whether it's possible for a devout Catholic to be confirmed to the federal bench.
By Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A judicial confirmation hearing yesterday turned into a rancorous debate between Democrats and Republicans over whether it's possible for a devout Catholic to be confirmed to the federal bench.
-----Quote------
Are you and your church 100% in agreement doctrinally?
Yes. I got a copy of the church's by laws. I read them and studied the Bible regarding them. I would not go to a church just because I am "comfortable" there. I go to church to hear the Word of God and to have fellowship with other Christians of like minds and beliefs. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because my pastor preaches on issues that I either should not be doing or should be doing. For instance, I struggle with forgiveness. There are some people that I felt 'justified' in not forgiving. Well, I heard a convicting sermon one Sunday. I didn't want to know the things I heard. I am now working on forgiving. I am able to do this with a lot of prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit.
-----End Quote------
I'm with you, yellowbug, and I'm Roman Catholic; which is considered by many to be pretty strict. It took time for me to submit my will to Christ's. The more I studied why my Church taught what it did, the more I realized I was wrong and was being stubborn. It was humbling to find out I didn't do a good job when I tried to re-invent the wheel. When I discovered the biblical basis and submitted to authority, I found more peace. Our society in the US has a "do your own thing" mentality. All that did for me was degrading and stressful. God's rules are wiser than any I can dream up. I will trust the wisdom of the ages as expressed by the Bible and taught by Christ's church from here on. I don't ever want to get lost again.
I will pray that you will forgive whomever, because I once struggled with that too. Victory will be yours. "The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." Psalm 34:18
Are you and your church 100% in agreement doctrinally?
Yes. I got a copy of the church's by laws. I read them and studied the Bible regarding them. I would not go to a church just because I am "comfortable" there. I go to church to hear the Word of God and to have fellowship with other Christians of like minds and beliefs. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable because my pastor preaches on issues that I either should not be doing or should be doing. For instance, I struggle with forgiveness. There are some people that I felt 'justified' in not forgiving. Well, I heard a convicting sermon one Sunday. I didn't want to know the things I heard. I am now working on forgiving. I am able to do this with a lot of prayer and the help of the Holy Spirit.
-----End Quote------
I'm with you, yellowbug, and I'm Roman Catholic; which is considered by many to be pretty strict. It took time for me to submit my will to Christ's. The more I studied why my Church taught what it did, the more I realized I was wrong and was being stubborn. It was humbling to find out I didn't do a good job when I tried to re-invent the wheel. When I discovered the biblical basis and submitted to authority, I found more peace. Our society in the US has a "do your own thing" mentality. All that did for me was degrading and stressful. God's rules are wiser than any I can dream up. I will trust the wisdom of the ages as expressed by the Bible and taught by Christ's church from here on. I don't ever want to get lost again.
I will pray that you will forgive whomever, because I once struggled with that too. Victory will be yours. "The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." Psalm 34:18
Wednesday, July 23, 2003
Obscenity law in Ohio targeted by lawyer
By Frank J. Murray
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A lawyer who specializes in defending the distribution of sex images, including by Larry Flynt's Hustler magazine, has moved to overturn Ohio's obscenity law on the basis of the recent Supreme Court decision legalizing homosexual sodomy.
By Frank J. Murray
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
A lawyer who specializes in defending the distribution of sex images, including by Larry Flynt's Hustler magazine, has moved to overturn Ohio's obscenity law on the basis of the recent Supreme Court decision legalizing homosexual sodomy.
Purgatory was not a recent invention. It is more than two thousand years old. The practice of praying for the dead was common among the Jewish people centuries before Christ. The Jews still say the Kaddish (http://www.mnemotrix.com/kaddish/kadwords.html) for a year after a death.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm
2 Macc 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." Note: Maccabees is a Deuterocanonical book. This quote from Maccabees is referenced in Heb 11:35, which shows that the Jews thought this book was inspired. Also, in John 10:22-26, Jesus celebrates the feast of the dedication (Hanukkah) which was made a feast in Maccabees, which implies Jesus didn't have a problem with this book either.
Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." True repentance requires making amends for the sins we have commited. If I steal something, I have not really repented if I don't pay back what I stole. It would not be fair to send people with minor (venial) sins (1 Jn 5:14-17) to hell, so there must be some way for the sins for which one has repented to finish the process of making amends. None of us are perfect when we get to heaven. We all have a tendency to sin, so how do we get to where we no longer have a tendency to sin? Something must happen to us after we die.
1 Cor 3:12 "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." The people Paul is talking about can't be people who are going to hell because they will be saved. So some people will be saved, but will be purified through fire.
Mt 12:31 "Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This implies that some sins will be forgiven in the age to come. It doesn't make sense that these sins would be mortal sins, because those who commit mortal sin go to hell and will not be forgiven. So the sins that are forgiven in the age to come are minor (venial) sins.
Here are some more verses about Purgatory:
Lk 12:59; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-14, ... God's painful discipline.
Heb 12:23 to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
1 Pet 3:19 ... he also went to preach to the spirits in prison (purgatory, limbo?).
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm
2 Macc 12:39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." Note: Maccabees is a Deuterocanonical book. This quote from Maccabees is referenced in Heb 11:35, which shows that the Jews thought this book was inspired. Also, in John 10:22-26, Jesus celebrates the feast of the dedication (Hanukkah) which was made a feast in Maccabees, which implies Jesus didn't have a problem with this book either.
Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." True repentance requires making amends for the sins we have commited. If I steal something, I have not really repented if I don't pay back what I stole. It would not be fair to send people with minor (venial) sins (1 Jn 5:14-17) to hell, so there must be some way for the sins for which one has repented to finish the process of making amends. None of us are perfect when we get to heaven. We all have a tendency to sin, so how do we get to where we no longer have a tendency to sin? Something must happen to us after we die.
1 Cor 3:12 "If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. 15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." The people Paul is talking about can't be people who are going to hell because they will be saved. So some people will be saved, but will be purified through fire.
Mt 12:31 "Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This implies that some sins will be forgiven in the age to come. It doesn't make sense that these sins would be mortal sins, because those who commit mortal sin go to hell and will not be forgiven. So the sins that are forgiven in the age to come are minor (venial) sins.
Here are some more verses about Purgatory:
Lk 12:59; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26 ... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-14, ... God's painful discipline.
Heb 12:23 to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
1 Pet 3:19 ... he also went to preach to the spirits in prison (purgatory, limbo?).
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14 ... "extra" suffering.
2 Tim 1:15-18 ... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
Tuesday, July 15, 2003
I'm doing some research for a depraved v. deprived debate. So far I've found these sites:
Catholic view = Deprived:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
http://www.kofc.org/faith/hart/hart_I8forgiveness.cfmhttp://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/originalsin.htm
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm
Lutheran view = Depraved:
http://www.all-of-grace.org/heidelberg.html
Heidelberg Catechism
Can anyone recommend other sites? Write me at rbg@cathworld.org
Importing morality?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030714-092735-6322r.htm
Can government compel people to act against their conscience? A Canadian judge forced a Catholic school to act against its understanding of Catholic teaching. That's what Henry VIII tried to do to Thomas More. Do these Canadian controversies foreshadow American controversies?
Catholic view = Deprived:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
http://www.kofc.org/faith/hart/hart_I8forgiveness.cfmhttp://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/originalsin.htm
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Apologtc/R_Haddad/Course/Book1.htm
Lutheran view = Depraved:
http://www.all-of-grace.org/heidelberg.html
Heidelberg Catechism
Can anyone recommend other sites? Write me at rbg@cathworld.org
Importing morality?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030714-092735-6322r.htm
Can government compel people to act against their conscience? A Canadian judge forced a Catholic school to act against its understanding of Catholic teaching. That's what Henry VIII tried to do to Thomas More. Do these Canadian controversies foreshadow American controversies?
Thursday, July 10, 2003
From the Christianity.com forum:
To Country_rocks1,
Is baptism necessary?
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I think this verse makes the point baptism is necessary clear enough. If you want to see that believing and baptism are both required, go to Mk 16:15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Also see Col 2: 12 "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
Are you thinking it is one or the other and not both faith and baptism that are necessary? I would baptize a baby just because Christ commanded the apostles to baptize. Why would Our Lord command it if it were not important? See Mt 28:19-20; "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." I would baptize the child for that reason even if we baptize people for gifts other than for salvation. Jesus did not say baptize everyone except young children. Acts 2:38-39 says "Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you.. "
---------Quote-----------
Baptism is a step in you full submission to God. But I do not believe that w/o it you are doomed.
---------End Quote-----------
Baptism removes original sin, so it is necessary for this reason. For verses that show original sin, see Psalm 51:5, Gen 3:16-24, Rom 5:12-19, and 1 Cor 15:21-22. Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." If you believe that baptism doesn't really do anything, think again about the verses that show that baptism regenerates and washes away sin as in Titus 3. How would God treat a baby that dies without baptism? Rev 21:27 says the unclean will not enter heaven. Yet I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent who had no chance of choosing to believe or be baptized. Who am I to say that God will not make exceptions? But why risk it? I don't want any child to get into heaven on an exception if I could give them the grace of God by following God's commandment to baptize.
Infants can have faith even if they don't have language to let us know. Luke 1:43 says that John the Baptist had faith in Jesus while in the womb. "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy." Jesus told us to let the little children come to him and not hinder them (Matt.19:14). Mark 9:42 says "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Psalm 22:9-10 "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." The mercy and grace of God is with us from conception. My three kids started asking about God and praying not long after they could talk.
Before Jesus, circumcision was normally performed on infants (cf. Genesis 17:12) but it was replaced by baptism. Colossians 2:11-12 says "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." There was a disagreement in the early church whether one had to wait till the eighth day to baptize instead of doing it sooner. In the 200's, the bishops decided that it could be done sooner than 8 days.
I think the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one. For as the Lord says in His Gospel, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them," so as far as we can, we must do our best to see that no soul is lost. Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him/her be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit.
--------- Quote-----------
Are you totally positive that "we" fully understand His rules and not how He applies them or could it be that we DON'T "fully" understand the rules themselves.
---------End Quote-----------
I think both are true to some extent. We know only what God has revealed, but sometimes we are confused about how to interpret that. 1Cor.13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." Sometimes we have to read the Bible as a whole, not a verse or two to get the whole picture. Despite the gifts of knowledge and revelation, we can't know everything (2 Pet 3:15-16). Any God that I can fully understand is a pretty small God. Judgement is reserved to God alone, so I can't always know how he will judge someone. Again, I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent.
To Country_rocks1,
Is baptism necessary?
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. I think this verse makes the point baptism is necessary clear enough. If you want to see that believing and baptism are both required, go to Mk 16:15-16 "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Also see Col 2: 12 "You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead."
Are you thinking it is one or the other and not both faith and baptism that are necessary? I would baptize a baby just because Christ commanded the apostles to baptize. Why would Our Lord command it if it were not important? See Mt 28:19-20; "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." I would baptize the child for that reason even if we baptize people for gifts other than for salvation. Jesus did not say baptize everyone except young children. Acts 2:38-39 says "Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you.. "
---------Quote-----------
Baptism is a step in you full submission to God. But I do not believe that w/o it you are doomed.
---------End Quote-----------
Baptism removes original sin, so it is necessary for this reason. For verses that show original sin, see Psalm 51:5, Gen 3:16-24, Rom 5:12-19, and 1 Cor 15:21-22. Rev 21:27 says "but nothing unclean will enter it [heaven], nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." If you believe that baptism doesn't really do anything, think again about the verses that show that baptism regenerates and washes away sin as in Titus 3. How would God treat a baby that dies without baptism? Rev 21:27 says the unclean will not enter heaven. Yet I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent who had no chance of choosing to believe or be baptized. Who am I to say that God will not make exceptions? But why risk it? I don't want any child to get into heaven on an exception if I could give them the grace of God by following God's commandment to baptize.
Infants can have faith even if they don't have language to let us know. Luke 1:43 says that John the Baptist had faith in Jesus while in the womb. "And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy." Jesus told us to let the little children come to him and not hinder them (Matt.19:14). Mark 9:42 says "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Psalm 22:9-10 "But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly." The mercy and grace of God is with us from conception. My three kids started asking about God and praying not long after they could talk.
Before Jesus, circumcision was normally performed on infants (cf. Genesis 17:12) but it was replaced by baptism. Colossians 2:11-12 says "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." There was a disagreement in the early church whether one had to wait till the eighth day to baptize instead of doing it sooner. In the 200's, the bishops decided that it could be done sooner than 8 days.
I think the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one. For as the Lord says in His Gospel, "The Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them," so as far as we can, we must do our best to see that no soul is lost. Do not let sin get any opportunity, but let him/her be sanctified from his childhood; from his very tenderest age let him be consecrated by the Spirit.
--------- Quote-----------
Are you totally positive that "we" fully understand His rules and not how He applies them or could it be that we DON'T "fully" understand the rules themselves.
---------End Quote-----------
I think both are true to some extent. We know only what God has revealed, but sometimes we are confused about how to interpret that. 1Cor.13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood." Sometimes we have to read the Bible as a whole, not a verse or two to get the whole picture. Despite the gifts of knowledge and revelation, we can't know everything (2 Pet 3:15-16). Any God that I can fully understand is a pretty small God. Judgement is reserved to God alone, so I can't always know how he will judge someone. Again, I do know that God is loving and merciful and does not punish the innocent.
Wednesday, July 09, 2003
From the Christianity.com forum:
------Quote-----------
I feel the rules you speak of hear are the ones defined by man, not by God. You say "if the rules are strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful". Well, if that is God's rule, than their is no "seem to be" about it, it would mean God is unmerciful in the way we view him. You are again implying that God makes exceptions to his rules to not seem unmerciful. You can't say we know what the rules are if that would mean God sometimes uses them and sometimes doesn't. Wouldn't it make more sense that God knows our heart, and as our hearts are his we obey his teaching to be Baptized out of our acknowledgment of our sin and our new life with him. Then if someone is taken from the world between the time the Holy Spirit entered his heart and the time he was baptized, we don't have to say God didn't stictly apply his rules in that case. We say, God knew his heart. And if you don't agree that the Holy Spirit enters your body before you are baptized, read the book of acts and you see many accounts of the Holy Spirit entering the body and then the men being baptized.
------End Quote-----------
When I say we don't fully understand how God applies the rules, I'm thinking of things that seems impossible for two things to both be true. For example, Jesus came for the salvation of all people regardless of denomination or creed.
1 John 2:1 "My children, 1 I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD."
This seems to contradict with John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Sometimes the Holy Spirit comes after baptism. Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Acts 8:15 "who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Other times, the Holy Spirit comes first. Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
----------Quote----------
A few things about this qoute, first, you again say baptism is a necessary step to salvation, yet I don't ever remember Jesus or his apostles emphasizing this. As much as they emphasized how the heart of man had to commit to their Faith in God and Jesus, I can't believe that it was not discussed, but for one verse in 1st Peter where it is said "Baptism now saves you" I haven't even read this section yet, so I am not sure of the context. But this is the only place in the Bible that it is even implyed that this act of Baptism is the difference between heaven and hell. And if you say it is "part of the process" as it kind of seems, that is a direct contradiction to this verse. Everywhere else, Baptism was shown as an act performed to show your faith. I am in need of plain English here because flowery descriptions are not doing it for me. Where else in the Bible are you deriving that Baptism is necessary. And I'm not even sure that is what is being stated in first Peter. If you are basing these "Rules" on one verse than why can refering to the theif on the cross which makes up one verse be refered to as an exception to the rule. They take up equal space in scripture.
----------End Quote----------
Baptism is one of several necessary steps. Earlier I wrote that salvation is a process, not instantaneous. Baptism is one of the necessary initial steps.
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized."
John 4:1-3 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples), 3 he left Judea and returned to Galilee.
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptised will be saved."
Matthew 3:14 "And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I NEED to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."
Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 22:15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
---------- Quote----------
Also, you say baptism is the means of recieving four basic gifts. Can you tell me where you are deriving this from, that Baptism is actually when all of these gifts are being given.
----------End Quote----------
Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. Baptism does more than just wash away sin.
Baptism makes us a member of the body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."
Gal 3:26 "For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus. 27 18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise."
Remission of sins:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
---------------
Psalms 51:3 Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense. 4 Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me.
----------------
Ezk 36:25-28 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Deliverance from death:
Romans 6:1-4 What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? 3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Regeneration:
Titus 3:4-8 "But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others."
Bestowal of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Yet the gift of baptism can end up being like an unopened gift. One must open the gift to truly have use of it. If a child doesn't grow in the faith, the gifts are dormant. Rom 2:28 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." This is why the parents must promise to raise the child in the faith before the child is baptized. The faith is more often "caught" than "taught" because of the good example of the parents.
http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/baptism2.htm has lots of verses on baptism. You could also go to Bible Gateway at http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible/ and do a search on the word "baptism" or "baptized". I think the above verses are the most important, though.
Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ... suggests baptism of all, incl. children.
Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4; Mk 16:16 ... necessity of baptism.
Col 2:11-12 ... circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Lk 2:21; Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism.
Acts 22:16 ... baptism removes sin.
1 Pet 3:21 ... baptism saves by water.
---------- Quote----------
Was it not taught that we are saved by Faith or did I interpret something wrong. I am being serious here, please don't take this as sarcastic, because I do want to understand how other people interpret the new testement. If inner faith is not what saves you, than either faith didn't save you at all or outward faith is actually what does it, and then does that mean you outward faith has to be real? It seems as if so much is to be questioned by these "rules" you speak of.
----------End Quote----------
And we are not saved by faith alone according to James 2:13 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Grace, repentance, faith, obedience, charity to neighbor are all part of our response to God's grace. This is a much bigger issue than what is included in this topic, but it is important to see how baptism fits into the bigger picture of salvation. The bottom line is that when Paul says in Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Paul is talking about obeying the 613 Jewish laws like circumcision (Rom 2:25). He does not mean that we don't have to have the "obedience of faith" as in Rom 1:5 or repent as in Rom 4 or act like he says in Rom 12. http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/solafide.htm is a good site for some verses on this. This topic has already been discussed in another forum Do Catholics believe in salvation
at http://forums.christianity.com/?post=75229
Proverbs 22:6
Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
------Quote-----------
I feel the rules you speak of hear are the ones defined by man, not by God. You say "if the rules are strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful". Well, if that is God's rule, than their is no "seem to be" about it, it would mean God is unmerciful in the way we view him. You are again implying that God makes exceptions to his rules to not seem unmerciful. You can't say we know what the rules are if that would mean God sometimes uses them and sometimes doesn't. Wouldn't it make more sense that God knows our heart, and as our hearts are his we obey his teaching to be Baptized out of our acknowledgment of our sin and our new life with him. Then if someone is taken from the world between the time the Holy Spirit entered his heart and the time he was baptized, we don't have to say God didn't stictly apply his rules in that case. We say, God knew his heart. And if you don't agree that the Holy Spirit enters your body before you are baptized, read the book of acts and you see many accounts of the Holy Spirit entering the body and then the men being baptized.
------End Quote-----------
When I say we don't fully understand how God applies the rules, I'm thinking of things that seems impossible for two things to both be true. For example, Jesus came for the salvation of all people regardless of denomination or creed.
1 John 2:1 "My children, 1 I am writing this to you so that you may not commit sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous one. 2 He is expiation for our sins, and not for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD."
This seems to contradict with John 14:6 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Sometimes the Holy Spirit comes after baptism. Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Acts 8:15 "who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism." 4Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Other times, the Holy Spirit comes first. Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, "John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?"
----------Quote----------
A few things about this qoute, first, you again say baptism is a necessary step to salvation, yet I don't ever remember Jesus or his apostles emphasizing this. As much as they emphasized how the heart of man had to commit to their Faith in God and Jesus, I can't believe that it was not discussed, but for one verse in 1st Peter where it is said "Baptism now saves you" I haven't even read this section yet, so I am not sure of the context. But this is the only place in the Bible that it is even implyed that this act of Baptism is the difference between heaven and hell. And if you say it is "part of the process" as it kind of seems, that is a direct contradiction to this verse. Everywhere else, Baptism was shown as an act performed to show your faith. I am in need of plain English here because flowery descriptions are not doing it for me. Where else in the Bible are you deriving that Baptism is necessary. And I'm not even sure that is what is being stated in first Peter. If you are basing these "Rules" on one verse than why can refering to the theif on the cross which makes up one verse be refered to as an exception to the rule. They take up equal space in scripture.
----------End Quote----------
Baptism is one of several necessary steps. Earlier I wrote that salvation is a process, not instantaneous. Baptism is one of the necessary initial steps.
John 3:5 "I tell you solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized."
John 4:1-3 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples), 3 he left Judea and returned to Galilee.
Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptised will be saved."
Matthew 3:14 "And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I NEED to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him."
Acts 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Acts 22:15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
---------- Quote----------
Also, you say baptism is the means of recieving four basic gifts. Can you tell me where you are deriving this from, that Baptism is actually when all of these gifts are being given.
----------End Quote----------
Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. Baptism does more than just wash away sin.
Baptism makes us a member of the body of Christ:
1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."
Gal 3:26 "For through faith you are all children of God 17 in Christ Jesus. 27 18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendant, heirs according to the promise."
Remission of sins:
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
---------------
Psalms 51:3 Have mercy on me, God, in your goodness; in your abundant compassion blot out my offense. 4 Wash away all my guilt; from my sin cleanse me.
----------------
Ezk 36:25-28 "I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees. You shall live in the land I gave your fathers; you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Deliverance from death:
Romans 6:1-4 What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? 3 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.
Regeneration:
Titus 3:4-8 "But when the kindness and generous love of God our savior appeared, not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these points, that those who have believed in God be careful to devote themselves to good works; these are excellent and beneficial to others."
Bestowal of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38 "Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, 7 every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit."
Yet the gift of baptism can end up being like an unopened gift. One must open the gift to truly have use of it. If a child doesn't grow in the faith, the gifts are dormant. Rom 2:28 "A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code." This is why the parents must promise to raise the child in the faith before the child is baptized. The faith is more often "caught" than "taught" because of the good example of the parents.
http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/baptism2.htm has lots of verses on baptism. You could also go to Bible Gateway at http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible/ and do a search on the word "baptism" or "baptized". I think the above verses are the most important, though.
Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 ... suggests baptism of all, incl. children.
Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4; Mk 16:16 ... necessity of baptism.
Col 2:11-12 ... circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Lk 2:21; Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism.
Acts 22:16 ... baptism removes sin.
1 Pet 3:21 ... baptism saves by water.
---------- Quote----------
Was it not taught that we are saved by Faith or did I interpret something wrong. I am being serious here, please don't take this as sarcastic, because I do want to understand how other people interpret the new testement. If inner faith is not what saves you, than either faith didn't save you at all or outward faith is actually what does it, and then does that mean you outward faith has to be real? It seems as if so much is to be questioned by these "rules" you speak of.
----------End Quote----------
And we are not saved by faith alone according to James 2:13 "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Grace, repentance, faith, obedience, charity to neighbor are all part of our response to God's grace. This is a much bigger issue than what is included in this topic, but it is important to see how baptism fits into the bigger picture of salvation. The bottom line is that when Paul says in Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Paul is talking about obeying the 613 Jewish laws like circumcision (Rom 2:25). He does not mean that we don't have to have the "obedience of faith" as in Rom 1:5 or repent as in Rom 4 or act like he says in Rom 12. http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/solafide.htm is a good site for some verses on this. This topic has already been discussed in another forum Do Catholics believe in salvation
at http://forums.christianity.com/?post=75229
Proverbs 22:6
Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
Tuesday, July 08, 2003
From the Christianity.com forum:
----------Quote----------
So, if the parents don't back up the promise they make at a Baptism that the child will be raised as a Christian, what happens? Now, if it is true that the parents act on the child's behalf, really all that has happened is the baby's head got wet because the parents are not following through.
----------End Quote----------
The faith of the parents makes a difference. The child is baptized on the basis that the parents are faithful Christians, so you are right in being concerned. Only one of the parents is required to be faithful, though. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 "To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy."
On the other hand, God's words are effective. The words do what He intends. So you can say the baptism of that child was ineffective or that the child will need to be re-baptized later. People do become believers even when their parents were not. Sometimes, parents later decide they want their child to be taught morality so they start going to church when the child is old enough to learn about God. Pray for the parents and do what you can to raise the child as a Christian even though the parents fail in their duty. In either case, baptism is one step in the process of salvation, yet Scripture says it is a necessary one. After baptism, the child is saved, is being saved, and hopes to be saved on the last day. The child is redeemed by the death and resurrection of Jesus and is part of God's family. Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The idea that it is a superfluous sign of inner faith was not what the apostles taught.
----------Quote----------
I don't feel like their is gray area to God's judgement of us. He knows where our heart is and doesn't make "exceptions" to his rules because his rules are perfect and exceptions need not be applied.
----------End Quote----------
I do think there are gray areas where we can't judge exactly how God will judge someone. Judgement is reserved to God. On the one hand, we know what the rules are, but there are situations where if the rules were strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful to condemn one who was not baptized. St. Thomas Aquinas speculated that these were marginal cases. The word "marginal" in Latin is limbo, which is where the idea that unbaptized babies go to limbo if they die. That was never a doctrine; just a theological speculation. We have to assume God is merciful and that we don't know everything. There may be different rules for the innocently ignorant than for those who are willfully rejecting the faith. I don't think God will treat both the same because it would not be just.
----------Quote----------
So, if the parents don't back up the promise they make at a Baptism that the child will be raised as a Christian, what happens? Now, if it is true that the parents act on the child's behalf, really all that has happened is the baby's head got wet because the parents are not following through.
----------End Quote----------
The faith of the parents makes a difference. The child is baptized on the basis that the parents are faithful Christians, so you are right in being concerned. Only one of the parents is required to be faithful, though. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 "To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy."
On the other hand, God's words are effective. The words do what He intends. So you can say the baptism of that child was ineffective or that the child will need to be re-baptized later. People do become believers even when their parents were not. Sometimes, parents later decide they want their child to be taught morality so they start going to church when the child is old enough to learn about God. Pray for the parents and do what you can to raise the child as a Christian even though the parents fail in their duty. In either case, baptism is one step in the process of salvation, yet Scripture says it is a necessary one. After baptism, the child is saved, is being saved, and hopes to be saved on the last day. The child is redeemed by the death and resurrection of Jesus and is part of God's family. Baptism is the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit. The idea that it is a superfluous sign of inner faith was not what the apostles taught.
----------Quote----------
I don't feel like their is gray area to God's judgement of us. He knows where our heart is and doesn't make "exceptions" to his rules because his rules are perfect and exceptions need not be applied.
----------End Quote----------
I do think there are gray areas where we can't judge exactly how God will judge someone. Judgement is reserved to God. On the one hand, we know what the rules are, but there are situations where if the rules were strictly applied, God would seem unmerciful to condemn one who was not baptized. St. Thomas Aquinas speculated that these were marginal cases. The word "marginal" in Latin is limbo, which is where the idea that unbaptized babies go to limbo if they die. That was never a doctrine; just a theological speculation. We have to assume God is merciful and that we don't know everything. There may be different rules for the innocently ignorant than for those who are willfully rejecting the faith. I don't think God will treat both the same because it would not be just.
Wednesday, July 02, 2003
From the Christianity.com forum:
Here are some major differences between religions:
Buddists believe there is no God. You have to save yourself.
Hindus believe any God will do. There is one God, but no one true God.
Muslims believe God created the world, but doesn't love us. We are slaves and have to earn salvation.
Jews believe God created the world and loves us.
Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us.
Catholic Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us and that they can hold the body and blood of Jesus and receive him into their body at Communion.
Which religion presents a picture of a God you want to believe in? Why would one want to turn away from an unconditionally loving, merciful God? Isn't that what every heart yearns for? Who would want to have to save themselves? Not me! Only those who do not know anything better would accept less than the God Christians worship.
-----------
2) How do I know the Bible isn't made up
----------------
How do we know any ancient literature isn't made up? How do we know it is as old as it is? There are some writings that we have only one copy of, like the Iliad, that we accept as being of ancient origin. How much more can we trust that the many manuscripts of the Bible are legit because they say the same thing no matter where they were copied. The Bible would not have been copied and preserved if it had not been believed to be of great value. Those closer to the time the Bible was written should know more than us Johnny-come-lately folks.
Here are some major differences between religions:
Buddists believe there is no God. You have to save yourself.
Hindus believe any God will do. There is one God, but no one true God.
Muslims believe God created the world, but doesn't love us. We are slaves and have to earn salvation.
Jews believe God created the world and loves us.
Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us.
Catholic Christians believe God created the world and loves us so much that he sent his son to save us and that they can hold the body and blood of Jesus and receive him into their body at Communion.
Which religion presents a picture of a God you want to believe in? Why would one want to turn away from an unconditionally loving, merciful God? Isn't that what every heart yearns for? Who would want to have to save themselves? Not me! Only those who do not know anything better would accept less than the God Christians worship.
-----------
2) How do I know the Bible isn't made up
----------------
How do we know any ancient literature isn't made up? How do we know it is as old as it is? There are some writings that we have only one copy of, like the Iliad, that we accept as being of ancient origin. How much more can we trust that the many manuscripts of the Bible are legit because they say the same thing no matter where they were copied. The Bible would not have been copied and preserved if it had not been believed to be of great value. Those closer to the time the Bible was written should know more than us Johnny-come-lately folks.
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